TheologyOnline, religion, politics, forum
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Politics
Reload this Page 6 year old boy wants to be girl
Politics Current Events, Abortion, homosexuality, gun control, public schools, welfare, taxes, government etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#241) Old
Granite Granite is online now
TOL Subscriber
 Granite's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
I don't think a six year old's *current* desire should be the deciding factor on what is comfortable for everyone else involved.
Then that gives us the implicit right to discriminate for however long the rest of us decide the decision isn't valid. That's open-ended bigotry.

Quote:
Tell me, Granite, were the decision changed and Coy IS allowed to be the only boy using the girl's restroom...
Which, technically speaking, doesn't seem to be true.

Quote:
...what would you tell the OTHER children (girls) who feel extremely uncomfortable or refuse to use the restroom?
You're assuming they'd be upset but I thought we'd already agreed neither of us know what the other kids are actually thinking right now. But this raises another issue: You seem to be saying it's fine to discriminate against certain individuals and to institutionalize prejudice if enough people are made uncomfortable by the presence of an individual who's different.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.




He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#242) Old
Rusha Rusha is online now
LIFETIME MEMBER
 Rusha's Avatar

 




Reputation:
Rusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peers
Rusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Then that gives us the implicit right to discriminate for however long the rest of us decide the decision isn't valid. That's open-ended bigotry.
We discriminate ALL the time. Children are not allowed to drive, drink, skip school, etc. ... even those who believe themselves to be *special* ...

Quote:
Which, technically speaking, doesn't seem to be true.
IF his parents get their way, it will be.

Quote:
You're assuming they'd be upset but I thought we'd already agreed neither of us know what the other kids are actually thinking right now.
How is that any different than assuming they wouldn't be upset?

Quote:
But this raises another issue: You seem to be saying it's fine to discriminate against certain individuals and to institutionalize prejudice if enough people are made uncomfortable by the presence of an individual who's different.
No ... though what I am getting from you is that it is fine to cater to the whims of ONE child even *if* all the other children would be uncomfortable.

It's not like we are talking about kicking a physically or mentally disabled child out of the school.

It's not like anyone is requesting that a child who has to rely on medication have it withheld.

No one is saying he has to sit in the back of the bus or not be allowed to use the drinking fountain.

I agree that the goal should be treating the children with kindness and equality ... however, as in every situation of equality, a line needs to be drawn.

The kid is a boy ... he is not being told he may not use the boy's restroom. He is simply not allowed to use the girl's restroom.

Out of curiosity, would your stance on this be any different IF there was a ruckus being made by the children whose restroom he wishes to share?





The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~ Scott Hamilton




   
Reply With Quote
  (#243) Old
Granite Granite is online now
TOL Subscriber
 Granite's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
We discriminate ALL the time. Children are not allowed to drive, drink, skip school, etc. ... even those who believe themselves to be *special* ...
Give. Me. A. Break. That is not "discrimination," and you know better than to use this old chestnut. (Once again, look at the people you're agreeing with. Bigots use this asinine rhetoric all the time to justify racism, homophobia, and the other ugly angels of our nature. This kind of sly attempt to defend human barbarism is beneath you.)

Such steps are not driven by bigotry. They are not driven by prejudice. They are not born of intolerant, vicious minds. Equating discrimination with keeping a toddler from behind the wheel of a car is downright insulting.

Quote:
How is that any different than assuming they wouldn't be upset?
Here's a thought, let's play "what if" all day long and see how far we get. I'll pass, thanks.

Quote:
No ... though what I am getting from you is that it is fine to cater to the whims of ONE child even *if* all the other children would be uncomfortable.
If Coy were Jewish, or black, a Buddhist, or a Sikh, or a Jehovah's Witness, or anyone else vulnerable and in danger of being singled out, or bullied, or taken advantage of, you wouldn't give a hoot in hell what the other children thought, you'd tell them to buck up and open their minds and get along with their day. On this issue, however, you're writing the majority a blank check when it comes to picking out a member of the crowd and discriminating, just because their precious mollycoddled feelings might be upset.

Quote:
It's not like we are talking about kicking a physically or mentally disabled child out of the school.
If a Down's Syndrome student made the other kids uncomfortable, what would you say? It's them against the rest of the classroom. Or a triple amputee student? Or a student who insists on wearing clothing that makes the other kids feel weird? Or a student who prays a certain way or eats certain food? We wouldn't tolerate discriminating against adults who live their lives under different norms or practices, but we should be instilling these mores in kids?

Quote:
It's not like anyone is requesting that a child who has to rely on medication have it withheld.
Correct. I'd say this is a pretty rotten situation just the same. Equivocating doesn't improve it.

Quote:
No one is saying he has to sit in the back of the bus or not be allowed to use the drinking fountain.
The same exact attitude underlines any form of discrimination.

Quote:
I agree that the goal should be treating the children with kindness and equality ... however, as in every situation of equality, a line needs to be drawn.
Or as the Englishman once said, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Quote:
The kid is a boy ... he is not being told he may not use the boy's restroom. He is simply not allowed to use the girl's restroom.
Well, once again: Your assumption that you know Coy's true nature despite what Coy says and thinks puts you in a position of assuming you're right no matter what I say. That's the attitude a religious zealot would take. Bizarre coming from you.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, would your stance on this be any different IF there was a ruckus being made by the children whose restroom he wishes to share?
I think I already answered that.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.




He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#244) Old
Rusha Rusha is online now
LIFETIME MEMBER
 Rusha's Avatar

 




Reputation:
Rusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peers
Rusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peersRusha is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Give. Me. A. Break.
TRANSLATION: Just shut up and agree with me.

Quote:
That is not "discrimination," and you know better than to use this old chestnut. (Once again, look at the people you're agreeing with. Bigots use this asinine rhetoric all the time to justify racism, homophobia, and the other ugly angels of our nature. This kind of sly attempt to defend human barbarism is beneath you.)
I haven't seen any discrimination towards this kids ...

Quote:
Such steps are not driven by bigotry. They are not driven by prejudice. They are not born of intolerant, vicious minds. Equating discrimination with keeping a toddler from behind the wheel of a car is downright insulting.
Discrimination has nothing whatsoever to do with providing a child to use the same bathroom facility as the other little boys.

Discrimination would be telling him he couldn't run for class president based on his gender/color/health, etc.

Quote:
Here's a thought, let's play "what if" all day long and see how far we get. I'll pass, thanks.
Good deal ... feel free to not play that game. Thanks.

Quote:
If Coy were Jewish, or black, a Buddhist, or a Sikh, or a Jehovah's Witness, or anyone else vulnerable and in danger of being singled out, or bullied, or taken advantage of, you wouldn't give a hoot in hell what the other children thought, you'd tell them to buck up and open their minds and get along with their day.
Absolutely ... what exactly does that have to do with Coy using the same bathroom as the rest of the guys?

Quote:
On this issue, however, you're writing the majority a blank check when it comes to picking out a member of the crowd and discriminating, just because their precious mollycoddled feelings might be upset.
It isn't about hurting their feelings, but rather protecting their right to privacy during bathroom breaks.

I would not have appreciated sharing a bathroom with the guys when I was in grade school up until ... well now ... so why should I expect that other children are not sensitive to this issue as well?

Quote:
If a Down's Syndrome student made the other kids uncomfortable, what would you say?
I would tell them under no circumstances should they treat this child poorly. Now ... if the parents of the DS student were insisting that their little boy be allowed to use the girl's restroom, I would say "no".

Quote:
It's them against the rest of the classroom. Or a triple amputee student? Or a student who insists on wearing clothing that makes the other kids feel weird? Or a student who prays a certain way or eats certain food? We wouldn't tolerate discriminating against adults who live their lives under different norms or practices, but we should be instilling these mores in kids?
I find it rather interesting that you are comparing Coy with children who have disabilities. Just an observation.

Quote:
Correct. I'd say this is a pretty rotten situation just the same. Equivocating doesn't improve it.
Because a child having their medication with held is exactly the same as one who IS allowed to use the restroom that corresponds with his gender ....

Quote:
The same exact attitude underlines any form of discrimination.
Actually, it's not. This child is not being discriminated against for being a male. He is being allowed the same exact rights as the other students.

Quote:
Or as the Englishman once said, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
That's just it ... Coy is being treated EXACTLY equal, straight down the line. I am not the person saying that Coy should have MORE rights than the other boys (or girls, who are not allowed to use the boy's restroom).

Quote:
Well, once again: Your assumption that you know Coy's true nature
But you do, huh?

Quote:
despite what Coy says and thinks puts you in a position of assuming you're right no matter what I say.
Actually, I haven't made any assumptions other than to state he is six years old and this might or might not be legitimate. Are you really going to deny that is extremely plausible that some children may express the desire to change their sex at an early age?

My youngest daughter at around the same age as Coy use to say "I want to be a boy" because she was a tomb boy and hung out with all the guys. At no time did I encourage her to make it her life's mission to have a sex change OR invade the boy's restroom. Guess what? She still had male friends, still enjoyed sports and *GASP* loves being a woman.

Quote:
That's the attitude a religious zealot would take. Bizarre coming from you.
My *attitude* comes from the fact that the idea of sharing a bathroom with guys when I was in high school as well as in the present is absolutely out of the question. I believe that the GIRLS should be able to decide whether or not this is something that *they* are comfortable with.

Still not seeing anything religious or zealous about this ...

Quote:
I think I already answered that.
Just as I have already answered and responded to the SAME questions and arguments that you keep repeating.





The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~ Scott Hamilton




   
Reply With Quote
  (#245) Old
mighty_duck mighty_duck is offline
Over 3000 post club
 mighty_duck's Avatar

 


Reputation:
mighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
Who gets to define what reason is legitimate when it comes to their children? Let me guess ... you and anyone who agrees with you.
No, we can come to some objective measure for harm as a legitimate reason.
Getting singled out is such a harm. Being uncomfortable because a gender ambiguous person can hear your bowl movements is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
Care to actually make an actual point outside of the insinuation of bigotry?
I must have struck a nerve...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
For the same reason we have men and women's dressing rooms in department stores. In the case of restrooms, not everyone feels comfortable relieving themselves in front of others ... or having the opposite gender sitting next to them in a stall.
While people's comfort is important, it isn't an overriding concern, otherwise we would still have separate but equal bathrooms for people not comfortable relieving themselves within earshot of colored folk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
The next time you are at a bar/grocery store/department store/party/work ... leave the door to the bathroom wide open so you can preach to all those bigoted gawkers about how silly it would be to do these things in private.
Many department stores don't have a door to the bathroom - only an S shaped corridor. If you are careful you can hear and smell anything that goes on in there - not unlike a stall. So what?





"What if the Hokie Pokie is really what it's all about?"

"The best things in life aren't things"
   
Reply With Quote
  (#246) Old
resurrected resurrected is offline
TOL Subscriber
 resurrected's Avatar

 



Reputation:
resurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 01:53 PM

It appears that many of you are enjoying the squabble, but wouldn't it be simple to just make single occupant bathrooms?

fool could probably speak to the feasibility of the concept, but I'm sure I've seen them.





.
.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you
   
Reply With Quote
  (#247) Old
Granite Granite is online now
TOL Subscriber
 Granite's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
TRANSLATION: Just shut up and agree with me.
Completely incorrect.

Quote:
Discrimination would be telling him he couldn't run for class president based on his gender/color/health, etc.
But say the child's gender, health, or color made the other students feel uncomfortable? That's what makes your objection here so arbitrary.

Quote:
It isn't about hurting their feelings, but rather protecting their right to privacy during bathroom breaks.
But to hell with Coy's feelings. There's only one Coy, after all.

Quote:
I would not have appreciated sharing a bathroom with the guys when I was in grade school up until ... well now ... so why should I expect that other children are not sensitive to this issue as well?
How would you feel if you had a transgender co-worker? Suppose you had to share a restroom with said co-worker? Would your discomfort be enough to justify discriminating against them? Why or why not?

Quote:
I would tell them under no circumstances should they treat this child poorly.
This strikes me as slightly inconsistent.

Quote:
I find it rather interesting that you are comparing Coy with children who have disabilities. Just an observation.
Ignoring the other examples I provided of any student potentially at risk at being singled out and discriminated against because of their unique vulnerabilities. A child's choices and identity can (and do) put them at risk when they're outnumbered due to circumstances beyond their control. The only time you seem to think such bigotry's justifiable is when we're dealing with grade-school transgender children. And, presumably, into their adulthood.

Quote:
That's just it ... Coy is being treated EXACTLY equal, straight down the line.
Never thought I'd see the day you were angered at the prospect of exact equality. TOL's taken a turn for the surreal.

Quote:
But you do, huh?
"Erring on the side of caution" comes to mind.

Quote:
Actually, I haven't made any assumptions other than to state he is six years old and this might or might not be legitimate. Are you really going to deny that is extremely plausible that some children may express the desire to change their sex at an early age?
My very first response on this thread was that there was a chance this was a passing phase. I've obviously given the subject a lot of thought since then. I'm open to this possibility...but you aren't willing to concede the flipside of that coin. Even if you are, you still remain adamant that discrimination against Coy's perfect defensible even if Coy's true gender identity is female. That makes your position even worse.

Quote:
My youngest daughter at around the same age as Coy use to say "I want to be a boy" because she was a tomb boy and hung out with all the guys. At no time did I encourage her to make it her life's mission to have a sex change OR invade the boy's restroom. Guess what? She still had male friends, still enjoyed sports and *GASP* loves being a woman.
All well and good but you need to admit that Coy may be different in order to be honest.

Quote:
My *attitude* comes from the fact that the idea of sharing a bathroom with guys when I was in high school as well as in the present is absolutely out of the question. I believe that the GIRLS should be able to decide whether or not this is something that *they* are comfortable with.
You're suggesting we should just start asking for a show of hands in terms of who we should and shouldn't discriminate against? Umm...that's a little spooky.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.




He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#248) Old
resurrected resurrected is offline
TOL Subscriber
 resurrected's Avatar

 



Reputation:
resurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peersresurrected is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
You're suggesting we should just start asking for a show of hands in terms of who we should and shouldn't discriminate against?



Who votes for the Jews first?





.
.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you
   
Reply With Quote
  (#249) Old
mighty_duck mighty_duck is offline
Over 3000 post club
 mighty_duck's Avatar

 


Reputation:
mighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peersmighty_duck is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 02:04 PM

That would seriously inhibit... um..throughput

How about we just have everyone, boys and girls alike, dress like this:


Or better yet, install closed door learning pods so no one can see anyone else, ever. That's the only way to prevent all these gender problems at school. Right?





"What if the Hokie Pokie is really what it's all about?"

"The best things in life aren't things"
   
Reply With Quote
  (#250) Old
Angel4Truth Angel4Truth is offline
~Peace if possible, but truth at any rate~
 Angel4Truth's Avatar

 





Reputation:
Angel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peers
Angel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peers
March 21st, 2013, 09:38 PM

or better yet, go into the rest room of the sex you actually are instead of the one you feel like on whatever given day - or petition for a third rest room to accommodate whoever and put a pic of "pat" on the door.






"Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation" - BHO

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


   
Reply With Quote
  (#251) Old
Granite Granite is online now
TOL Subscriber
 Granite's Avatar

 



Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
March 22nd, 2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
or better yet, go into the rest room of the sex you actually are instead of the one you feel like on whatever given day - or petition for a third rest room to accommodate whoever and put a pic of "pat" on the door.

Or try to take the conversation seriously.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.




He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#252) Old
Angel4Truth Angel4Truth is offline
~Peace if possible, but truth at any rate~
 Angel4Truth's Avatar

 





Reputation:
Angel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peers
Angel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peersAngel4Truth is well respected by his peers
March 22nd, 2013, 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Or try to take the conversation seriously.
I am serious. If they cant handle just using what they were born with in order to relieve themselves, maybe they need their own restroom, because other people have the right to feel comfortable going to the bathroom also and if you do not get that, i feel for you.





"Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation" - BHO

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2012 TheologyOnLine



Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.