[Apple7]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Just to be clear, what would you like me to begin?

I'm assuming examine scripture. I believe we should do this. Are you asking me to begin examining scripture on the subject?

I believe we have looked at particular verses in this regard already, in the past. But I welcome and invite another look. Mostly so that we can learn from each other, but more importantly that we would both come to truth (rather than just understand each other's perspective).

Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Now that you have posted a verse....tell us what it means to you...

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Apple7

Now that you have posted a verse....tell us what it means to you...

I'm not sure. There are other verses to consider. And a doctrine should not be formed from just one verse.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Apple7

Now that you have posted a verse....tell us what it means to you...

Is this an ask for perhaps either personal or private interpretation?

[Apple7]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I'm not sure. There are other verses to consider. And a doctrine should not be formed from just one verse.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Let’s review Rev 3.14…


και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou

Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:



First, Jesus is the one being directly quoted (tade legei) and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.




και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tade legei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.

This translates into what is being stated by the epithets listed after the formula.

This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.

The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity not to Him being created.

Further, each address to the assemblies initiates with Jesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Jesus is God.

All things came into being through Jesus.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…


Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

See post 303.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.