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Reload this Page "Therefore, Abortion Must Remain Legal"
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  (#781) Old
quip quip is offline
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July 9th, 2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
Nearly all anecdotal evidence that you're so hesitant to mention can be countered with one word.

Adoption.
The adoption-option. Of course, it's one of her choices viz choice.

Quote:
Don't want the baby? There's a way out and the baby can even not be killed!

Novel idea.
Don't want to be pregnant..........?



   
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July 9th, 2013, 12:13 PM

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Originally Posted by quip View Post
Well, no...if you'd bother to apply some grey matter to your rhetoric..one can't supply evidence to something that's yet to happen. (Hint: abortions happen prior to the circumstances they would have experienced if they had been born into them.)
What "evidence"? Who's asking for evidence of anything at all? I asked you for an example of "environmental circumstances" that you believe would justify abortion as an act of mercy.

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Originally Posted by quip View Post
Either way, any anecdotal evidence would have simply been rejected by you..matter of fact you've had plans all along to reject anything I might say..because you're silly question was a (straw)rhetorical question..no?
You know, you'd have been much better off with just not answering.

So you won't even attempt to offer an example of these terrible "environmental circumstances" that pro-lifers so heinously subject unborn babies to...rather than killing them to spare them. No, no. You won't do that because I'm just going to reject anything you say. Huh.





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  (#783) Old
WizardofOz WizardofOz is offline
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July 9th, 2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
Complex perhaps but extreme?
Yes. To say that ALL abortion should be legal is extreme. What is complex about it? There is no complexity to the position whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
Abortion is a complex issue, there's no easy answers...that is, if you're viewing abortion from an non-biased/objective perspective.
You're biased in favor of choice.

Objectivity? Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
From your perspective...perhaps.
Shall we go through it again? What does who I personally know have to the issue at all?

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Originally Posted by quip View Post
The charge of red-herring is a rich one considering being robbed has nothing to do with abortion.
It has to do with the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
The robber and the robbed aren't conjoined by physical bounds...at least not on the crime dramas I've been watching. That physical link is key to my "red herring" and the circumstances as to why a woman would desire to sever this link is precisely the abortion issue pro-lifers utterly refuse to discuss. I've repeatedly attempted to discuss such...to no avail. TH being the latest one to simply ignore a discussion regarding the mother. As if the fetus subsists in abstract space somewhere.
You're missing the point of the comparison.

Your red herring was mentioning that I do not know the parties involved.

So what?

Actually I'll have to retract the charge seeing as how you feel that all abortions should be legal.

Doctor: "You're due to give birth any moment"
Woman: "I've changed my mind, abort the baby"
Doctor: "Sign here and we'll abort"
quip: "Late-term abortion should be legal, so "

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
Because they're relative to each pregnancy/woman. I could give you a worst-case yet, you all would still scream bloody murder anyway. So, it would be pointless hoop jumping...I don't hoop jump without adequate compensation $$
Wost-case (rape or threat to life of the mother) amounts to less than 1% of abortion.


The "hard cases" of the mother's life, rape and incest, and fetal deformities (negative eugenics) account for only about 0.69 percent of all abortions in the United States each year. This means that 99.31 percent of all abortions are committed "to save the mother's lifestyle" (actual reasons the aborting mothers give are in the next section, and they confirm these numbers).



The rationalizations are made every day. Anything you can come with has been heard already.



• "I want no (more) children" (30.9%);
• "I want to postpone childbearing" (21.1%);
• "Having a child will disrupt my education or job" (19.9%)
• "My mental health is at risk" (9.8%);
• "I can't afford a baby now" (6.6%);
• "I have a problem with my relationship or my partner does not want this pregnancy" (4.4%);
• "There is a risk to fetal health" (negative eugenics) (3.1%);
• "I am too young; my parent(s) or other(s) object to my pregnancy" (1.5%);
• "My physical health is at risk" (1.1%); and
• Other reasons (1.6%).[17]






Defining life as beginning at conception would define the unborn child as a life. Thereafter the taking of that life would be murder. Murder in our criminal code and constitutional history is punished by the laws of the individual states. The federal government does not dictate the terms of the state murder laws. Some have longer sentences. Some allow for parole, some do not. Some have the death penalty, some do not." - Ron Paul

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WizardofOz WizardofOz is offline
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January 30th, 2014, 08:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
Let's say, a woman elects to abort because it may interfere with her career aspirations. Lifer's would undoubtedly take an indignant stand against such a choice yet, it's only a matter of moral degree...all such choices are subjective...per the life/death choice to abort so aptly illustrated by the lifer...no?
Being pregnant and having a baby may interfere with career aspirations. Therefore, abortion must remain legal.

-OR-

Some women may die during pregnancy unless action is taken, therefore all abortion must remain legal.





Defining life as beginning at conception would define the unborn child as a life. Thereafter the taking of that life would be murder. Murder in our criminal code and constitutional history is punished by the laws of the individual states. The federal government does not dictate the terms of the state murder laws. Some have longer sentences. Some allow for parole, some do not. Some have the death penalty, some do not." - Ron Paul

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January 30th, 2014, 09:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
I'm certainly not blanket "pro-choice", however "life begins at conception" is untenable as well. It's almost impossible to enforce very early term abortions and many forms of contraception would be illegal if a so called "Life Amendment" were passed.

I think a fetus is a person, or at least close enough to be protected at a certain point after conception. I'm not entirely sure when that is, but somewhere between a heartbeat and quickening might be good places to draw the line. I do not think a fertilized egg or a ball of undifferentiated cells is a person.

Research shows that making abortion illegal doesn't reduce abortion rates at all, it simply makes it less safe for the woman. Countries where abortion is illegal have similar rates to those where it is legal.

I do think abortion should, at the very least, be illegal after fetal viability with exceptions for the life of the mother and *severe* fetal defects. I could see more restrictions being placed, but a blanket life amendment type law wouldn't be supported by much of the population at all.

I am also interested in addressing unplanned pregnancy with greater access to birth control as well as better social support for women who choose to have their children. It's these latter two that many right wingers object to, which makes me think instead of being pro-life, they are simply "pro-birth". once the kid is born it's up to the parents to take care of the child. "Government provided social services just reward bad behavior!" they say. Unfortunately the lack of them punishes the very children they insist must be born.
Post #3 pretty much said it for me. Though I would add to it the extreme importance of respecting individual freedom of choice until it is very clear how and at what point we can conclusively say that the fetus is an individual human being, too.



   
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January 30th, 2014, 09:50 AM

My response to Alate





Defining life as beginning at conception would define the unborn child as a life. Thereafter the taking of that life would be murder. Murder in our criminal code and constitutional history is punished by the laws of the individual states. The federal government does not dictate the terms of the state murder laws. Some have longer sentences. Some allow for parole, some do not. Some have the death penalty, some do not." - Ron Paul

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January 30th, 2014, 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
Being pregnant and having a baby may interfere with career aspirations. Therefore, abortion must remain legal.

-OR-

Some women may die during pregnancy unless action is taken, therefore all abortion must remain legal.
Do these straw-takes have a point?





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WizardofOz WizardofOz is offline
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January 30th, 2014, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by quip View Post
Do these straw-takes have a point?
Just exposing weak pro-choice rationalizations, that's all





Defining life as beginning at conception would define the unborn child as a life. Thereafter the taking of that life would be murder. Murder in our criminal code and constitutional history is punished by the laws of the individual states. The federal government does not dictate the terms of the state murder laws. Some have longer sentences. Some allow for parole, some do not. Some have the death penalty, some do not." - Ron Paul

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a person vs a human, abortion, fetus, personhood, personhood fallacy, sanctity of life


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