Our new birth is the birth of the Son of God into our old human nature,
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The idea of spiritual birth, or being born again from John 3 is only to create a contrast to physical birth, which was election to the Israelites. The "birth" is simply the means to receiving eternal life. In this case, believing in Christ. There isn't anything "literal" about a spiritual birth.
Salvation was certainly possible before the salvation of Christ, but those who died "not having received the promises" (Heb 11) were simply looking forward to Christ in faith. What happened when Christ died and was resurrected is that God's wrath was propitiated. Justification came to all men, and all who had believed and would believe would receive it. That's the change that came.
And now, because Christ has come and declared Himself to be God and died and was resurrected, we place our faith more specifically in Christ for resurrection and eternal life.
So, faith has been happening since Adam and Eve. Justification came to all when Christ died and was resurrected, and those who died believing before Christ received justification at that time.
When speaking of mere salvation, I couldn't agree more, Nicodemus had already experienced that part it per Rom 5:1___but it isn't speaking of mere salvation and that is why He never answered Nic's 'observations' but cut right to the chase__the important part and the reason for Jesus spending 3 1/2 spelling it out. Think about it. Read John 17 in that light.
BTW, I stated these facts and asked this questions your reply really doesn' address:
But it still carries with it the fact of Spiritual birth, doesn't it? __ Something that was not possible until after the Glorification of Jesus, correct? What is that "Spiritual" birth Jesus declared man must have and for reason? When was the first event of such a happening?
But it still carries with it the fact of Spiritual birth, doesn't it? __
I guess you'll have to define what you mean by "spiritual birth." Being "born of the spirit" or "born again" in John 3 is only Jesus' way of explaining to Nicodemus that election to eternal life isn't from being physically born an Israelite.
But Jesus doesn't explain how this relates to eternal life until John 3:16.
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Something that was not possible until after the Glorification of Jesus, correct?
No. Faith in God has always been the condition of salvation. What changed when Jesus came and then died and was resurrected is that the promise that those who came before Christ looked forward to was finally realized. And now, after Christ, we look back to the fulfillment of that promise.
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What is that "Spiritual" birth Jesus declared man must have and for reason?
Spiritual birth is the analogical term for election in the New Covenant, which is based in faith in Christ.
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When was the first event of such a happening?
Again, since the standard is effectively the same, but the fulfillment of the promise causes a different perspective, the question you're asking is unclear. I suppose the first "happening" would be with the first person who believed in Christ that saw Him resurrected, but the only difference is the perspective of before and after death/resurrection.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
I guess you'll have to define what you mean by "spiritual birth." Being "born of the spirit" or "born again" in John 3 is only Jesus' way of explaining to Nicodemus that election to eternal life isn't from being physically born an Israelite.
But Jesus doesn't explain how this relates to eternal life until John 3:16.
No. Faith in God has always been the condition of salvation. What changed when Jesus came and then died and was resurrected is that the promise that those who came before Christ looked forward to was finally realized. And now, after Christ, we look back to the fulfillment of that promise.
Spiritual birth is the analogical term for election in the New Covenant, which is based in faith in Christ.
Again, since the standard is effectively the same, but the fulfillment of the promise causes a different perspective, the question you're asking is unclear. I suppose the first "happening" would be with the first person who believed in Christ that saw Him resurrected, but the only difference is the perspective of before and after death/resurrection.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
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August 9th, 2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Cross Reference
What is the will of God, to reflect His Glory or to 'live' His Glory?
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:18).
"As in a glass" we "reflect" the glory of Christ (which we behold in the gospel as in a mirror from which it is reflected).
"Changed into the same image" means to be Christ-like. Therefore to live as Christ would have us live.
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:18).
"As in a glass" we "reflect" the glory of Christ (which we behold in the gospel as in a mirror from which it is reflected).
"Changed into the same image" means to be Christ-like. Therefore to live as Christ would have us live.
True however, He said: "unless I abide IN you and you abide IN Me __you can do nothing" and He only did what He saw His Father doing, how does that change things?
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
What? You want me to do a verse by verse? I haven't claimed any systematic theology at all. I'm simply pointing out the context of John 3 and that Jesus explains what he means by "born of the spirit" in John 3:16.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
What? You want me to do a verse by verse? I haven't claimed any systematic theology at all. I'm simply pointing out the context of John 3 and that Jesus explains what he means by "born of the spirit" in John 3:16.
Do it better, study harder, again, for the first time, because your rendition is wanting and I am not going playing silly games with anyone's 'bent' thought process.
"my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you" Galatians 4:19 (ESV)
What does that mean except the son of God has been born in that one and is cognoscent of the fact that he/she is a Bethlehem for such a wondrous birth..
Do it better, study harder, again, for the first time, because your rendition is wanting and I am not going playing silly games with anyone's 'bent' thought process.
I see. Are you proclaiming yourself the inerrant interpreter of Scripture, now?
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
"my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you" Galatians 4:19 (ESV)
What does that mean except the son of God has been born in that one and is cognoscent of the fact that he/she is a Bethlehem for such a wondrous birth..
Unless you think Paul was literally pregnant and in labor again for the Galatians, I think you're Paul's intent.
If you look at verse 11, Paul fears his labor over them has been in vain. They are turning to the Old Covenant, which is the rejection of Christ, and Paul wants them to turn from the law and to freedom in Christ.
Thus, "Christ is formed in you" refers to maturing in Christ, even as Paul's anguish in childbirth refers to his sadness and frustration over their turning to the law.
So, more exegetical work is needed in your interpretation of Scripture.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Romans 8:13 (ESV)
For if you live according to the flesh you will die,
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live.
Romans 6:6 (ESV)
We know that our old self was crucified with him
in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing,
so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Galatians 5:16 (ESV)
But I say, walk by the Spirit,
and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24 (ESV)
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
The transfiguration as you put it, is us no longer living by and for the flesh, but living by the Spirit, for God.
Crown Him, ye martyrs of your God, who from His altar call;
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all!
Let every tribe and every tongue before Him prostrate fall;
The God incarnate, Man divine, and crown Him Lord of all!
"Apart from me you can do nothing."~Jesus
Phil. 3:8 (ESV)
Romans 8:13 (ESV)
For if you live according to the flesh you will die,
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live.
Romans 6:6 (ESV)
We know that our old self was crucified with him
in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing,
so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
"might" __operative word here.
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Galatians 5:16 (ESV)
But I say, walk by the Spirit,
and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
A necessary directive given by Paul as solid Pastor in Christ who understood the issues concerning the flesh of man.
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Galatians 5:24 (ESV)
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
"belong" __ operative word as being those who were enabled to crucify their flesh. It's a Love thing.__an indwelling life.
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The transfiguration as you put it, is us no longer living by and for the flesh, but living by the Spirit, for God.
Indeed it is, and we can see this as fact in the life of the man Jesus as our example of what God intended for Adam. Too bad Adam did not pursue this in his choosing of the wrong tree.
Here is a very simple truth;
Unless Christ Jesus is living in us, we fail to live for Him. We cannot, will not overcome sin in our lives unless Christ lives in us. Not us living in Christ. Christ living in us.
Jesus left this earth so that the Holy Spirit, HIS Holy Spirit would come and indwell us, i.e. live in us, so that we, like Him, would overcome the world. AND, yet not us living in Him, but Him living in us, as the Scripture that CR posted.
Please, do not limit GOD, Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit and their work in our lives once we accept them. They come into us. We do not go into them.
Here is a very simple truth;
Unless Christ Jesus is living in us, we fail to live for Him. We cannot, will not overcome sin in our lives unless Christ lives in us. Not us living in Christ. Christ living in us.
Jesus left this earth so that the Holy Spirit, HIS Holy Spirit would come and indwell us, i.e. live in us, so that we, like Him, would overcome the world. AND, yet not us living in Him, but Him living in us, as the Scripture that CR posted.
Please, do not limit GOD, Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit and their work in our lives once we accept them. They come into us. We do not go into them.
Blessings,
Lee
Indeed Brother! If Christ truly and experimentally lives in us we will be in union with both Him and Father:"And in that day you shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you." John 16:23 (KJV)
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