[NewDay]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewDay
Hi CR, how are you?

CR:

Fine, thank you! Hope you are as well. .

Yes, I am doing great. Enjoying a good conversation, here.



I said:

Quote:
This is confusing, because often people confuse the perfecting of faith, of the old covenant saints, with the perfecting of knowledge that we all endure...even now.

CR:

The OT saints were justified by faith. Would you say then that more faith or perfecting of what they already had, would bring more justification?

The justification was a promise, until it took effect. It took effect through the work of Jesus on the cross. They looked forward to it by faith...yet, never received it in their lifetimes. There was no justification under the old covenant, which is why they had to look forward to the new, by a promise....of good things to come. (the better promises, that spoke better things than that of Abel....etc.)

For example, Job:

Job 13: 18 Behold now, I have ordered [my] cause; I know that I shall be justified.

Do you see the 'future tense'?

The new covenant explains that it is through His blood that mankind is Justified, so, as the old covenant saints looked forward to this, God was not ashamed to call them brethren. Heb 11.

Paul explains how it was accomplished here:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

So, when I say they (old covenant saints) walked by faith and their faith needed to be perfected/heb 11, I am speaking of the ACT that accomplished it, which is the new covenant act of Jesus death.

I said:

Quote:
There is a 'perfecting of faith' that had to occur, from old to new covenants, and those who lived priorly could not stand perfected, until the blood of Jesus got it done.

CR:

Perfecting of faith must, by definition, mean, the perfecting of the life of Christ.

What do you mean?

I said:

Quote:
We do not have to wait, we are perfected in salvation immediately now, alongside them, that occurred over 2,000 years ago. So, let's keep in mind that when the bible speaks of maturing in the faith, etc, for US, it is not speaking of salvation, but increasing in knowledge. OUR SALVATION IS PERFECT, IT CANNOT BE LOST.

CR:

There is no perfection of faith needed for salvation when simple faith in God is all that is required for justification.

Yes, for the time has come, that it is freely given to all who believe. We do not have to wait for the finished work of Jesus to get it done, now that it is done. I was speaking of those who lived prior to the new covenant, where salvation was brought to fruition, by Jesus work of dying on a tree. At the same time, the old covenant saints are just as justified, saved, have already entered heaven, etc....

CR:

Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but sinners. What Jesus performed for such justified folk was making peace with God in their behalf__the shedding of His Blood.

They were looking forward to their justification, as I see it, the bible says they never received the promises in their lifetimes, but looked forward to them, embraced them by faith, KNEW they were coming..etc...

Heb 11



I said:

Quote:
There is a perfecting unto salvation, which was only applied to those who lived prior to the new covenant, as Heb 11 speaks of how they did not receive the promise in their lifetimes, due to the fact that the cross is what got it done. Now, we live in the new covenant, and our salvation is perfect, upon immediate receiving of it, but our knowledge is not perfect, but perfection in knowledge has nothing to do with our initial salvation, for it is sure, and cannot be lost.

Quote:
Yes, when you are born again, your salvation is sure and you cannot lose it.

CR:

Three times you mention one cannot lose their salvation. Please reconcile this with your thinking:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out." Luke 11:24 (KJV)

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him" Hebrews 2:3 (KJV)

"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven" Hebrews 12:25 (KJV)

I would say that it is not speaking of losing salvation. If we refuse to hear Him, and do His will after we are saved, what happens? He corrects us, and He does so by allowing us to reap what we sow in the flesh, so what are we not going to escape? Correction....where does it say we are going to lose salvation?

To me the context is speaking of escaping what we sowed.


I said:

Quote:
You should move onward into knowledge, however...and, this is how we are rewarded, but, you cannot lose your salvation. God wants us to obey ALL His will, and HIS will after we are saved is to receive increase in the knowledge of love and how it works.

CR:

Really? In seeking "knowledge" is this not the reward:

"And this is life eternal, that they might "know" thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

Gaining knowledge is not received in an instant. It is a lifetime growth process. Do you agree?


I said:

Quote:
See...this is what I mean, maturing in knowledge has nothing to do with receiving the perfection that comes through His shed blood, that is our salvation. Of course He wants us to mature, that is HIS WILL....for us all. We do receive differing rewards in how we allow ourselves to follow HIS WILL. We cannot however lose our FREE salvation, that HE died to give us a free gift, that perfected the salvation of the old covenant saint, alongside the new covenant saint...and, likewise placed us all INTO ONE BODY. (SOME WILL DENY THAT, FOR THEY LACK KNOWLEDGE, BUT THEIR SALVATION IS ALREADY PERFECT).

CR:

Perfecting in knowledge or anything else Christ Jesus, cannot begin unless/until one is hungering and thirsting after the things of God__which cannot happen until one is born again which will reveal the evidence of such a disposition.

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit that gets it done in us. Salvation itself is not a part of that process..it is a free gift, that comes by simple belief...in the gospel, as I see it. I do agree that 'believing' in essence is hungering and thirsting after the things of God, for that is a part of repentance.



I said:

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Not at all. You have the ability to submit and grow, or to lay dorment...and stagnant, but if you do, you will be corrected. He has His way to get that done.

CR:

To lay dormant or stagnate is an act of insubordination for any Christian; disobedience that, without repentance, carries with it the penalty of being castoff..

The being 'castoff' is being going through correction.

It is not a casting away of our salvation, it is a handing over to correction, through reaping and sowing. Again, it is not cutting one off from salvation, believe me, I used to see it just as you, but God corrected my understanding. Suffering for disobedience as a christian does not unsave you. It actually teaches you and helps you to continue to mature and grow...experiencing correction is a good thing. He works good our of our 'bad'.




CR:

Here is knowledge the only that needs be perfected:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (KJV)

"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:27 (KJV)

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33 (KJV)

Has He ever lost a son yet?

..or did He correct every son He gained? Does the clay have power over the potter?

I don't think so, so that has to be read in context of the rest of His words.

There is NOT one son that will ever fall into a category of those, for when we do, He brings us through correction, and gets us back on the right track, every time.



I said:

Quote:
I am speaking of following His Will. It is His will for us all to grow in knowledge, and as we do, love is increased, and we learn more about HIS nature, etc...and, what He expects of us all. Many allow love to wax cold. It does not mean they lose salvation, it means they will be corrected, harshly.....reaping and sowing...in this life.

CR:

It is His will we be intimate with Him. What kind of pursuing will take me there?

Pursue love....

the part I bolded. I think you already stated that.

I said:

Quote:
God..He corrects everyone of us, does He not?

CR:

Whose we?

Christians, His sons and daughters.


I said:

Quote:
Anytime we ACT out of love, we are in His will. Anytime we act without love being the root of anything we do, we are going to be corrected for that action. Reaping and sowing, it does not undo our salvation, but it does correct us. God is good like that.

CR:

That can only be if our relationship with Him can be truly declared, one that is.

I hope that helps as well. . . .

Agreed. I don't know anyone who claims to be saved, that does not desire His will. Desiring His will is a prerequisit to salvation...it is repentance.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by NewDay

CR:

The justification was a promise, until it took effect. It took effect through the work of Jesus on the cross. They looked forward to it by faith...yet, never received it in their lifetimes. There was no justification under the old covenant, which is why they had to look forward to the new, by a promise....of good things to come. (the better promises, that spoke better things than that of Abel....etc.)

If we are to begin at the right staring place, lets begin by understanding that justification by faith, was a fact, not a promise. Romans 5:1 says as much__and it remains that way for much of the "un-gospeled" world.

Now where do we go?

the OP appears to be reacting against abuse of the fact that we do receive the Spirit of conversion. (If we do not we are not born again).

All too often emotional reaction is the core of people's thought. So it is usually skewed.

The dictum abusus non tollit usum (google it) still applies.

After the insane brutality of treatment i received from pentecostal churches it is this dictum that still keeps me a believer


Abusus non tollit usum

Google it

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by Strefanash

the OP appears to be reacting against abuse of the fact that we do receive the Spirit of conversion. (If we do not we are not born again).

All too often emotional reaction is the core of people's thought. So it is usually skewed.

The dictum abusus non tollit usum (google it) still applies.

After the insane brutality of treatment i received from pentecostal churches it is this dictum that still keeps me a believer


Abusus non tollit usum

Google it

What is this: "Spirit of conversion"? Thanks.

What "brutal treatment" did you experience?

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

If we are to begin at the right staring place, lets begin by understanding that justification by faith, was a fact, not a promise. Romans 5:1 says as much__and it remains that way for much of the "un-gospeled" world.

Now where do we go?

I never claimed otherwise, due the fact that Jesus death accomplished it over 2,000 years ago.

I was speaking of those who lived prior to the work on the cross, they looked forward to their justification, and I gave you a verse that proved that.

Job said "I know I will be justified".

Why did he say it was not yet accomplished?

Job 13:17 Hear diligently my speech, and my declaration with your ears.


Job 13:18 Behold now, I have ordered [my] cause; I know that I shall be justified.

He didnt say, " I stand justified ", present tense.

Of course he is now, alongside every other saint, both old covenant and new. DUE to the work on the cross, that got it done.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by NewDay

I never claimed otherwise, due the fact that Jesus death accomplished it over 2,000 years ago.

I was speaking of those who lived prior to the work on the cross, they looked forward to their justification, and I gave you a verse that proved that.

Me, too and so was Paul.

Job said "I know I will be justified".

Why did he say it was not yet accomplished?

How would he have known?

Job 13:17 Hear diligently my speech, and my declaration with your ears.
Job 13:18 Behold now, I have ordered [my] cause; I know that I shall be justified.

He didnt say, " I stand justified ", present tense.

Of course he is now, alongside every other saint, both old covenant and new. DUE to the work on the cross, that got it done.

The righteous were justified by "faith". Ergo, faith in God's promise, wouldn't you say? Is not the promise of God as good as the fulfillment?

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

Me, too and so was Paul.



How would he have known?



The righteous were justified by "faith". Ergo, faith in God's promise, wouldn't you say? Is not the promise of God as good as the fulfillment?

The bible says they did not receive the 'promise' in their lifetime, in heb 11, but looked forward to it.
That is already accomplished now, so now it does not matter, but back then, it would of meant something.

I used to wonder why they didnt receive the promise in their lifetime, too, and then God showed me why:

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Hbr 9:16 For where a [fn]covenant is, there must of necessity [fn]be the death of the one who made it.


Hbr 9:17 For a [fn]covenant is valid only when [fn]men are dead, [fn]for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.


Hbr 9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.


Hbr 9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,


Hbr 9:20 saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."


Hbr 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the [fn]tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.


Hbr 9:22 And according to the [fn]Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


Hbr 9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


Hbr 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;


Hbr 9:25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.


Hbr 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin [fn]by the sacrifice of Himself.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by NewDay

The bible says they did not receive the 'promise' in their lifetime, in heb 11, but looked forward to it.
That is already accomplished now, so now it does not matter, but back then, it would of meant something.

Again, was not the promise as good as the fulfillment unto justification?

[NewDay]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

Again, was not the promise as good as the fulfillment unto justification?

Speaking of receiving it, yes, but, it had to be worked out, before it was applied...which is why none of them received it in THEIR NATURAL LIFETIMES. (old covenant saints), they knew it was coming, embraced it, but did not receive it until the cross...there was NO salvation under the old covenant. The new had to be the only way. The new is the fulfillment of what was promised.

Now, it is done.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by NewDay

Speaking of receiving it, yes, but, it had to be worked out, before it was applied...which is why none of them received it in THEIR NATURAL LIFETIMES. (old covenant saints), they knew it was coming, embraced it, but did not receive it until the cross...there was NO salvation under the old covenant. The new had to be the only way. The new is the fulfillment of what was promised.

Now, it is done.

What do you believe the Promise of the Father was? I'll bet we won't agree.

Hint, Clue, Its found in Joel.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

You are not comprehending what I wrote. Give it another shot.

Read my Thread.

I did:

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

All mankind is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Problem is they don't know it.

Shouldn't that be the preaching of the church, that they find out?

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

I did:

Sorry, you will have to point me to what this is all about.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

Sorry, you will have to point me to what this is all about.

That you said in another response that you did not say this:

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

All mankind is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Problem is they don't know it.

Shouldn't that be the preaching of the church, that they find out?

Just pointing out that you had said it. That's all.

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by lifeisgood

That you said in another response that you did not say this:



Just pointing out that you had said it. That's all.

OK. Yes I did. I hope you agree with it. Obviously, to say that it is is to infer there's been a problem with man acting upon it.

[lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

All mankind is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Problem is they don't know it.

I do not agree that * all mankind * is the temple of the Holy Ghost.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The believer becomes the Temple of the Holy Ghost when coming to Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19).

Originally Posted by Cross Reference

Shouldn't that be the preaching of the church, that they find out?

The preaching of the Church must be Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross. If you who hear the preaching, believe, repent, and confess you will be saved --- reject that preaching and be lost (totally and eternally separated from God).