[elisabeth e]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

If you think God wills murder and abortion, you don't understand God, the bible/Torah nor the settled view.

Seek those whom you trust with theological matters and discuss this with them.

Your god is the author of sin.

I seem to recall you saying something about "shared responsibility."


That is, all that enable the possibility for an action share in the responsibility of the consequence.


You don't believe that anymore?


Or are you perpetually reliant on intellectual dishonesty?


You can't pick and choose what attributes you think G-d should have based on your own values.

[elisabeth e]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Since we are quickly going off topic, perhaps you would like to continue the conversation here.

No thanks.

I'm fine where I'm at.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

What don't you get?

Nothing can be manifested against G-d's will.

What, according to you, is stronger than G-d's will, so that it can go against it?


What speck of dust can overcome the sun?

So to sum it up, your belief is that human beings are not responsible for their actions because God has willed it?

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

I seem to recall you saying something about "shared responsibility."

Context? As in, a man and woman both "share the responsibility" of having a baby. Or, the doctor and mother-to-be "share the responsibility" or aborting the embryo/fetus.

Quote me.

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

That is, all that enable the possibility for an action share in the responsibility of the consequence.

Ah, so the mother of a killer shares the responsibility for those actions because she created the possibility that he may murder one day?

Is that what you're talking about?

This way, you can claim that God "shares in the responsibility" for abortions and Hitler because he created humans?

Please expand and clarify your point here.

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

Or are you perpetually reliant on intellectual dishonesty?

When have I been dishonest? Quote me.

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

You can't pick and choose what attributes you think G-d should have based on your own values.

This is EXACTLY what you are doing. You have chosen to use your settled view to rationalize supporting legal abortion.

Talk about projecting.

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by Rusha

So to sum it up, your belief is that human beings are not responsible for their actions because God has willed it?

Exactly.

[elisabeth e]

No.

I believe that humans are responsible for their actions, because they perform them and have to suffer the consequences.

I believe that G-d is also responsible because He allowed for the possibility of those actions while having absolute knowledge of the actual outcome.

[elisabeth e]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

Ah, so the mother of a killer shares the responsibility for those actions because she created the possibility that he may murder one day?

Is that what you're talking about?

This way, you can claim that God "shares in the responsibility" for abortions and Hitler because he created humans?

Please expand and clarify your point here.

If the mother has full knowledge and certainty that her child will be a killer before she has the child and decided to have him anyway?

Yes, the mother shares in responsibility for whomever her child may kill in the future.

[elisabeth e]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

This is EXACTLY what you are doing. You have chosen to use your settled view to rationalize supporting legal abortion.

Talk about projecting.

My view on the validity of legal abortions has nothing to do with what I think the character of G-d is.

I can recognize the validity of the right to self ownership even if I were an atheist.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

No.

I believe that humans are responsible for their actions, because they perform them and have to suffer the consequences.

I believe that G-d is also responsible because He allowed for the possibility of those actions while having absolute knowledge of the actual outcome.

Originally Posted by elisabeth e

If the mother has full knowledge and certainty that her child will be a killer before she has the child and decided to have him anyway?

Yes, the mother shares in responsibility for whomever her child may kill in the future.

So much for freewill ...

How exactly should a mother or parent *know* such a thing?

[elisabeth e]

Originally Posted by Rusha

So much for freewill ...

How exactly should a mother or parent *know* such a thing?

They wouldn't.

And that is why they do not share in the responsibility.

However, G-d does have such knowledge, which is why He has responsibility in the matter.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers

There you go again, placing God over there and not here. Wheres "here" and why ain't God "here" where you don't want Him to be. Thats just it, you don't want Him here! If miscarriages existed at all then it happened during a time slice. In other words, the miscarriage happened in the past liked it really happened on our planet Earth. That means it happened in our universe. That means it happened during our time and space. If God owns time and space then He is involved. Why do you not want God involed? Why are you stopping Him? How is that possible? Everything that happens is according to God cause He is the owner of time and space. What meaning of "Present" do you free willist not understand? Understanding comes when you're in the real moment.

Thank God for Calvinism. Just take it exactly like the Bible said. It said that nothing happens without God. No if's and buts. They'll start more traditions of man.

Here is a tip, Just get into the moment. Things will clear up if you stop dreaming of non-stop traditions full of brand new lies. You have missed the boat again. Jump back onto the "Present" It called the "Boat of God" On the decks of reality, you'll discover the meaning of Calvinism when you are in the present. Flee from the past and forget the future. There Calvinism appears.

You're a moron.

[ThePresbyteers]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

You're a moron.

GET OUT OF THE DARKHOUSE !

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers

GET OUT OF THE DARKHOUSE !