[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by seekinganswers

As I clearly stated, lying will not get a person anywhere on the path that Christ has tread for us. But may I suggest that our willingness to hurl the accusation of "liar" can be just as damaging to that walk?

To the best of my memory I've never called anyone a liar here, whether hurled willingly or otherwise.

What you see as a "lie" may, in fact, be a result of your brother or sister's limitations (i.e. they truly thought they were in the right and did not see things clearly). To call a brother or sister a "liar" implies that they knew the truth and yet intentionally went against it. What if their resistance to the truth was not a matter of rebellion but of their own limitations?. Jesus told us to bear the burdens of the weaker brother or sister (not to push them out of our fellowship).

I would also point out that in as much as our brother and sister may be mistaken, we ourselves face the same danger (we may believe we are in the truth when, in fact, we do not see things as clearly as we might like to think we do). I would hope that the other, in such an instance, would extend to me the same kind of mercy as Christ commands me to show them.

Again, I didn't call anyone a liar. If we can't get past this point, I think I'll just have to give up.

We do need discernment in all of this, and we have to draw a line at some point in order to live. But I would just hope that we could be humble enough, in whatever we decide to do, never to presume that what we have decided is a mandate of God come down to us from on high that will stand for the rest of time (unless we are talking of the witness that has come to us from the ones God chose to reveal himself to this world).

Wisdom, in the Jewish mindset, is not a clear-cut thing; you cannot write it down in words nor can you teach it with simple lessons to your children. Wisdom requires one to know not only right from wrong, but when the right thing has become wrong.

I think the New Testament authors were getting at this Jewish concept of wisdom when they said that the letter of the law kills but the spirit of it saves. One would think that keeping the law of God to the letter would get us to his will, but the history of Israel has shown us something quite different. It is one thing to know what God has said to his people; it is quite another to know his will. The letter of the law will not help us to know what God truly desires; that requires a deeper wisdom which is also a gift from God.

I honestly am not sure what you're trying to say here.

Perhaps the fruit of the spirit is not quite as easily discerned as you would suggest here. The Jews of Jesus' day were quite certain that Jesus had gone outside the law of God in his teaching; little did they know that they had, in Jesus, condemned to death the very God of the covenant they so zealously sought to obey. If they could be that mistaken, we should not presume to think that we will fair any better in our own arrogance. We must always be humble enough in our walk with the God of creation to say that we ever have more to learn.

Humility is much harder to practice than it is to talk about, I would agree with that.

[resurrected]

Originally Posted by annabenedetti

Whether correcting the believer or evangelizing the unbeliever:

Is it acceptable for a Christian to use unrighteous behavior when expressing what he believes to be a righteous anger?

Does the end justify the means? Is it okay to insult, mock, belittle, defame or lie about others when evangelizing or correcting what the Christian believes to be their wrong attitude, behavior or belief?

It seems that a lot of Christians think it's okay; that those they consider to be in error, in sin, or in heresy deserve to be treated unrighteously until they repent.

It seems to me that the key to understanding whether behavior is "righteous" or not has to do with intent. If one's intent is to change behavior and lead a strayed lamb to Christ, then I would give a greater latitude to harsh language. If, however, one's intent appears to be to celebrate one's own cleverness, if the intent doesn't appear designed to change behavior or is ineffective in making one's point after hundreds of posts, I think it behooves one to examine their motives.

insult - no problem. Christ used insulting language to make His point.

mock - same thing. Scriptural precedent. Elijah and the propets of Baal.

belittle - I'd be more careful of this one. Sure there's scriptural precedent (same Elijah passage), but I wouldn't use it as an evangelizing tool.

Definition of BELITTLE
1: to speak slightingly of : disparage <belittles her efforts>
2: to cause (a person or thing) to seem little or less

defame - Paul was pretty clear about this in Ephesians 4. Don't do it.

Definition of DEFAME
1archaic : disgrace
2: to harm the reputation of by libel or slander

lie - Are you kidding?



Ephesians 4 is worth bringing out here:

Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

speaking the truth in love

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


If these precepts are in your heart, your words will be righteous and the fruits of the spirit will be readily recognized.

[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by resurrected

It seems to me that the key to understanding whether behavior is "righteous" or not has to do with intent.

I would agree with that, although there's an argument for an objective righteousness.

insult - no problem. Christ used insulting language to make His point.

mock - same thing. Scriptural precedent. Elijah and the propets of Baal.

Both of these have been brought out in support but I have reservations about them being effectively supportive of either action because in the first case we're not God and in the second case, 1 Kings 18 starts out by saying the word of the Lord came to Elijah and I just don't think that's happening before posts are made here. But I would admit, and have, that mocking, insulting and belittling are of lesser concern than lies and defamation.

belittle - I'd be more careful of this one. Sure there's scriptural precedent (same Elijah passage), but I wouldn't use it as an evangelizing tool.

defame - Paul was pretty clear about this in Ephesians 4. Don't do it.



lie - Are you kidding?

But it happens. That's what precipitated this thread in the first place, the idea that lies can be perpetuated about the sexual identity of someone (or someone's wife) and it's okay. And others can be okay with it.

Ephesians 4 is worth bringing out here:

speaking the truth in love

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


If these precepts are in your heart, your words will be righteous and the fruits of the spirit will be readily recognized.

I couldn't agree more.

[resurrected]

I think I just found me a signature line

[resurrected]

Originally Posted by resurrected

I think I just found me a signature line

Huh

It doesn't stick it in retroactively like it used to.

[Levolor]

Originally Posted by annabenedetti

Whether correcting the believer or evangelizing the unbeliever:

Is it acceptable for a Christian to use unrighteous behavior when expressing what he believes to be a righteous anger?

Does the end justify the means? Is it okay to insult, mock, belittle, defame or lie about others when evangelizing or correcting what the Christian believes to be their wrong attitude, behavior or belief?

It seems that a lot of Christians think it's okay; that those they consider to be in error, in sin, or in heresy deserve to be treated unrighteously until they repent.

Hello Annabenedetti,

I voted no on your poll the other day, and have pretty much read the entire thread too.

Just a moment ago, while reading up on the characteristics of sheep, I came across a sentence that gave me cause to think of your thread. Perhaps this sentence gives a succinct appraisal of the situation you are concerned about?

The sentence is: Carnivores kill sheep. Sheep never kill carnivores.

I'd give the website this was obtained from, but I do not remember the rule on posting websites... so, I may be erring on the side of caution.


Now, from thinking of the spiritual implications of that sentence, I find myself thinking of the following verses:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:32

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Galatians 5:14-15

[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by Levolor

Hello Annabenedetti,

I voted no on your poll the other day, and have pretty much read the entire thread too.

Just a moment ago, while reading up on the characteristics of sheep, I came across a sentence that gave me cause to think of your thread. Perhaps this sentence gives a succinct appraisal of the situation you are concerned about?

The sentence is: Carnivores kill sheep. Sheep never kill carnivores.

I'd give the website this was obtained from, but I do not remember the rule on posting websites... so, I may be erring on the side of caution.


Now, from thinking of the spiritual implications of that sentence, I find myself thinking of the following verses:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:32

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Galatians 5:14-15

Hi Levolor.

Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I like that, about the sheep and the carnivores. Something to think about for sure. And yes, you can link to it. There's no problem with linking to sources when quoting, in fact, it's a good idea to do it.

[Levolor]

Originally Posted by annabenedetti

Hi Levolor.

Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I like that, about the sheep and the carnivores. Something to think about for sure. And yes, you can link to it. There's no problem with linking to sources when quoting, in fact, it's a good idea to do it.

Thank you.

I too have always thought it a good idea to post resourced links, but some forums are funny about it.

The website is a pdf: http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/shee...r-wwg-2-04.pdf