[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by Angel4Truth

They must have more attractive people in the UK - thats why gun control works there.

I was just going to say that to TCM... you beat me to it, darn it.

I'd stopped to look up the study, since there was no citation.

It exists, it's called Ugly Criminals.

[annabenedetti]

Originally Posted by TomO

ITT I was born to be a criminal.

Were you predestined?

[Ktoyou]

Did Jesus ever mention a sword? How and by what implication? Now why would Jesus mention something that did not exist then?

[TomO]

Originally Posted by annabenedetti

Were you predestined?

Only a little bit.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by This Charming Manc

About 1/2 to 2/3 what your is the best I can make out. What do you get out of those stats?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-england-wales

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Not that big of a difference. Certainly not enough to make me reconsider gun ownership.

Sorry that is a very telling statement, you seem to have a very low regard for human life.;

I have no regard for the life of scum. What's telling here is your ignorance.

[This Charming Manc]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Not that big of a difference. Certainly not enough to make me reconsider gun ownership.

You seem to have not followed the argument.

There is a massive difference in gun crime and gun homicides, the second is approx 13,000 gun homicides to 40 a year - (200 year once we scale it up for different populations) other homicide rates are about similar.

The counter argument to that and the fact we have unarmed police for the most part was that it would mean our criminals run rampant in other areas.

I bothered to research facts rather than respond in clichés and found the moderately better general crime rates for the UK which we have juts discussed.

So in summary a massive difference in gun crime in our favour a moderate difference in other crime.

I have no regard for the life of scum. What's telling here is your ignorance.

Who determines who is scum ?
By whose standards ?
Why is your life more valuable than that of scum ?
What gives your life value in the eyes of anyone.
Where does Jesus tell you to have no reward for the life of scum ?
Does Jesus give no value to the life of scum ?
Do you follow Jesus, or do you just see him as a convenient sacrifice so you can be a jerk and go to heaven ?

[This Charming Manc]

Yes he did.
There are two scriptures which are troublesome to us on more pacifist end of Christanity

However taking the balance of the NT Id prefer to put those two scriptures I can't figure out to one side, and focus on the 20 -30 than I do understand and lead me a less violent stance.

Originally Posted by Ktoyou

Did Jesus ever mention a sword? How and by what implication? Now why would Jesus mention something that did not exist then?

[lovemeorhateme]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I have no regard for the life of scum. What's telling here is your ignorance.

Does Jesus have regard for the life of 'scum'? Are we called to be like him? Who decides who is 'scum' and who isn't? Are prostitutes 'scum'? Did Jesus spend time around prostitutes?

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by This Charming Manc

You seem to have not followed the argument.

There is a massive difference in gun crime and gun homicides, the second is approx 13,000 gun homicides to 40 a year - (200 year once we scale it up for different populations) other homicide rates are about similar.

The counter argument to that and the fact we have unarmed police for the most part was that it would mean our criminals run rampant in other areas.

I bothered to research facts rather than respond in clichés and found the moderately better general crime rates for the UK which we have juts discussed.

So in summary a massive difference in gun crime in our favour a moderate difference in other crime.

Do you really not see what's going on here? Are you seriously that blind?

Our violent crime rates are very close and the only reason gun crime is lower is because you don't have any guns. Do you really not get the reality here?

Who determines who is scum ?
By whose standards ?
Why is your life more valuable than that of scum ?
What gives your life value in the eyes of anyone.
Where does Jesus tell you to have no reward for the life of scum ?
Does Jesus give no value to the life of scum ?
Do you follow Jesus, or do you just see him as a convenient sacrifice so you can be a jerk and go to heaven ?

The lives of murderers, rapists, child molesters? Yes, my life is worth more than theirs.

Lives ≠ souls. I never said their souls were worth less than theirs.

Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme

Does Jesus have regard for the life of 'scum'? Are we called to be like him? Who decides who is 'scum' and who isn't? Are prostitutes 'scum'? Did Jesus spend time around prostitutes?

Jesus cared about their souls; He died for our sins so our souls would be saved. But our lives are something else entirely. Have you never read the commandments regarding the death penalty?

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by TomO

I consider your statistics flawed because the methods of information gathering is flawed. The amount of crimes which are stopped due to the presence of a firearm is woefully underreported. In fact in certain instances guns alleviate some of the problems related to the fallenness of humanity.

I was saying that giving a fallen world powerful means of destruction is not generally a good idea.

In scope? Absolutely...But this scope is merely a refelection of the power of said item.

Power is indeed a rationale for restriction of certain items.

And the fact that the anti-gun person is against guns but not kitchen knives makes me think that power is part of their argument.

My understanding of their rationale is not lacking....lets just say it's a whole lot more convincing when used for a nuclear weapon as by restricting them you keep...hopefully....certain individuals from weilding the power of mass destruction. IOW something substantial is accomplished while removing no real benefits.

It's foolishness to assume you remove the power of taking individual lives by restricting guns from citizens in good standing with society. Nothing is really accomplished in my view.

What is accomplished is the removal of a powerful weapon, the rationale of which you just admitted is not without merit.

I, as well, see the potential loss of benefits to be unacceptable.

Yes, but that is an argument of degree. If gun owners were consciously making degree-based arguments their demeanor would not be so confident and, often, obnoxious.

I guess that makes the two sides even then.

Have I constructed a strawman?