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Originally Posted by alwight
...I accept your views TH even though I don’t agree it is “sin” or necessarily even wrong any more than heterosexual private consenting is.
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Well, you wouldn't...hmm, no, no innuendo.
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When some Christians feel the need to impose their doctrine and beliefs onto gays
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Then I don't think they've learned much of anything from the cross. I often say to atheists who want to honor Christ as a moral philosopher but eschew the OT God that Jesus, who knew that narrative better than they, said when you saw him you saw that father...so there's a lesson in the OT narrative that needs to be understood about justice and reconciliation absent the mercy of grace. And until anyone learns that lesson they'll wonder at how Christ could possibly have meant that. And they'll try to revive the law absent it.
And that's about all I have to say on that...
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I’m still not sure how closely you align yourself with TOL, in fact I rather suspect you rather don’t want to make it totally clear.
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I've loved the place, though I suspect my old friend Granite is right and the place is about done with me.
I believe Knight fashioned something to do what is an absolute good. I also believe it fails to do that absolute good now and again. It's a member by member responsibility. I'm harder on the Christians here because it's our charter. We spend so much time telling one another why our dogmatic differences make all the difference...that's not how it was for me. That's not who I met on the way to graduating law school. That's not who called or keeps me. So the in fighting that divides what should be a compassionate and joyful approach often disheartens me, as does our eagerness to find fault within the Body and to set a hierarchy of superiority in place.
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Do you agree say that homophobic attitudes are condoned by TOL or not, if so do you approve or not, never mind what you may or may not like about my comments?
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I'd say that TOL recognizes, as I do, that the Bible is reasonably clear on it as a sin. I don't know that there is an official TOL position on what we do about it. I'm really as on the outside looking in as you are. I think people are allowed to speak forcefully about sin here, though I think that's often done rather selectively. I don't have any more problem with homosexuality than I do with fornication than I do with profane speech. And as I require grace and so does every man I'd rather push that understanding than spend time calling out any other man or woman's particular failing as though that somehow distinguishes between us.
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IMO man made laws are not absolutes rather cultural and social requirements to keep order.
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By and large. They can reflect absolutes though. It depends.
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When exactly or do you think that absolutes apply, ever?
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In our aspiration and God's judgment. So I am aware of the good and, loving it, desire that my conduct is conformed, though I understand my own nature and imperfection will see me fail that desire. I suppose that for the Christian I'd say perfection reminds us of our need for grace, should, if properly contemplated (at least while
) strike a note of gratitude in us.
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Isn’t God simply something you aspire to as being absolute and that in practice everything we do is relative notwithstanding mathematics or philosophy say?
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I'd say I recognize God's absolute perfection and that in practice I simply fail to meet it. It doesn't follow that any moral statement of value is relative.
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I don’t think you are a bigot TH  , never have, but if you do ever fully align yourself with the views of TOL or of those condoned posters that I think are bigots, or even perhaps never disassociate yourself, then I will reserve my option to reconsider.
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I don't see that unified sensibility that you do, but if I ever do align myself completely with anyone other than Christ as I understand him it would be a first.
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I was hoping you might by now have chosen to make it clearer specifically anyway since much of what this is about is to do with relativism or indeed your lack of it, which imo you simply choose to keep as vague as possible.
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I really haven't though. It's not being vague that's cost me friends I valued and garnered a great deal of criticism. Not complaining or feeling persecuted on that account. I expected it. And I suppose I was as ready as I could be for it. I don't like hurting anyone, even if it's only a temporary feeling. That may surprise you, but it's the reason I tend to couch my remarks humorously...except with a very few who by their actions demonstrate a blithe indifference to the suffering of others. Those I swing at with a different meaning and intent...which is probably the wrong way to go about it, but there it is. Just saying...
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I gather that totally colour-blind people perhaps often have a much finer definition. I could drone on about male-colour blindness actually being a selectable hunting advantage but better not.
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I know I get around better in darkness than most. I think that has to do with judging things by line. Not sure though.
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I’m simply more content not to have to conclude everything just for the sake of it.
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I'm not either. I doubt many people are.
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As above, imo you simply fudge and avoid the fact that if you perhaps accept that God is an absolute then so must His morality be absolute.
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Where I think that as with your initial reading of my atheistic perspective you simply have it wrong. I don't need to "fudge" and I've fairly and directly stated that I believe in moral absolutes that reflect His nature.
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Given God’s morality must override yours and also apply everywhere, do you claim to know specifically what it is? This is the question I’d like you to answer more clearly.
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I don't think that's much of a mystery. It begins, for the Christian, with the foundation: love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself. Moral law can be charted from that reference point, both in obligation and prohibition. More than that takes a longer conversation than I'll have time for.
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Then I was in error you were not an absolutist atheist.
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Thanks. No harm done and it was a while ago now.
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I had understood it as though it seemed that you rather thought of yourself as an absolute failure as an atheist, my gleaning skills may have been off here.
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Yes I nearly put in “special pleading” here IIRC.
The certainty of uncertainly seems more of a device or philosophy than of any practical use afaic.
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Where I'd say it's an example of logic exposing a poor value, but there you go.
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I think as above that illusion is simply part of being a human being.
Does illusion ever become delusion?
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I'll stick with my oasis answer on the point.
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es indeed I think it often does, particularly for those who aren’t aware of the illusion or who don’t want to be. 
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All I can tell you is that I was happily and rationally ensconced in a life and perspective that was stripped away from me by a depth of clarity and joy that astounded me, once I got over the crushing failure of my former narrative voice, that whatever you choose to call it I am a better human being in its wake and my perception of its presence. And I am certain that the world would be a more joyful, giving place were it adopted as the rule.
God meet and keep you, al. That has been, remains and will be my hope for you.
July 9th, 2012, 08:40 AM
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Kind of you to say so.
Then I must not be doing it right. 
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