Being saved and going to heaven are not the same thing.
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Our present salvation (or redemption) consists of being set free from sin's ruling power in our lives by the greater power of the risen Christ. In Christ we have access to the same resurrection power to overcome and defeat the sin within us. It is God's power made available to us in Christ.
But having received this power by identifying with Christ and accepting him as our champion, we are now called on to live in that power and newness of life. In this sense, we who follow Christ have a great gift and advantage over those who do not. But having this privilege brings with it a corresponding responsibility and obligation. If we are to claim Jesus as our lord then we must endeavor to live by obedient faith in him.
At judgment, God will examine our lives to see if we have so endeavored. As Christians we have an obligation to live according to the Spirit. We are, after all, partakers of the divine nature in Christ.
If we have lived faithfully, endeavoring to seek and grow in the life of the Spirit, he will welcome us into his eternal presence. If ,however, we have not lived faithfully, and have continued to live in that which we were set free from (our slavery to sin) we cannot expect that he will welcome us just because we made a profession of faith at some time.
Our present salvation (or redemption) consists of being set free from sin's ruling power in our lives by the greater power of the risen Christ. In Christ we have access to the same resurrection power to overcome and defeat the sin within us. It is God's power made available to us in Christ.
But having received this power by identifying with Christ and accepting him as our champion, we are now called on to live in that power and newness of life. In this sense, we who follow Christ have a great gift and advantage over those who do not. But having this privilege brings with it a corresponding responsibility and obligation. If we are to claim Jesus as our lord then we must endeavor to live by obedient faith in him.
At judgment, God will examine our lives to see if we have so endeavored. As Christians we have an obligation to live according to the Spirit. We are, after all, partakers of the divine nature in Christ.
If we have lived faithfully, endeavoring to seek and grow in the life of the Spirit, he will welcome us into his eternal presence. If ,however, we have not lived faithfully, and have continued to live in that which we were set free from (our slavery to sin) we cannot expect that he will welcome us just because we made a profession of faith at some time.
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June 13th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letsargue
Ephesians 2:6 KJV -----///--- That was during Paul's time and "NOW", not some time in the future now!! Paul said, HATH / "HATH" RAISED / "RAIS'ED" ( us ) up together, and MADE ( US ) SIT TOGETHER IN "HEAVENLY PLACES" IN CHRIST JESUS!! -- Christ "IS" in Heaven!! - That's what G-O-D said!! - Not what some man thinks God meant!!
I'm awake and in Christ in a Heavenly Place!! What do any of you think a Heavenly Place "IS"????
Paul -- 061212
The verse does not say you already have been raised up and are already seated in heavenly places, the English translation confuses the issue because it cannot deal correctly with the Aorist tense of the verbs used.
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
blueletterbible
Ephesians 2:6 paraphrased
6And (has raised / is raising / will raise) [us] up together, and (made / is making / will make) [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
A lot of confusion is caused when salvation is equated with going to heaven.
Jesus spoke of salvation as being set free from the power and bondage of indwelling sin. This is what is available to us in this life, the ability through the Holy Spirit to be victors over sin. This salvation includes the forgiveness of our sins, but it is so much more. In him, we have access to very nature and life of God so that we can begin to live in strength and joy rather than defeat.
The concept of our eternal destiny is another issue entirely. That will be determined at judgment, and it will be based on whether or not we have lived faithfully. This is the salvation (from the second death) that is yet to be revealed. A salvation without reference to sin.
So at the present we have a salvation in Christ that sets us free from the rule of sin. But in the future (at judgment) we may or may not receive our salvation from the second death. And there is no guarantee that having been saved in the present we will automatically be granted salvation into heaven. God will make that determination based on whether or not we have lived by faith.
If we do not recognize that there is both a present and a future salvation, then a number of passages will seem contradictory. But if we understand this distinction we can begin to see that while we have been saved by grace (in the present, from the rule of sin), our future salvation (which will determine our eternal destiny) is very much dependent on how we live. Whether we continue in faith or not is up to us, and God has clearly stated that it is the faithful who will be rewarded but the unfaithful will be separated from him forever.
Salvation in Christ is both a present reality and a future promise, if we faithfully abide in him. But to regard the concept of present salvation as being synonymous with going to heaven will result in confusion and misunderstanding that can have eternal consequences.
I'm not quite sure why you would submit the same post twice in a row but please refrain from doing so in the future. You've done it two different times now on this thread. Doing it again may result in an infraction.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16
Our present salvation (or redemption) consists of being set free from sin's ruling power in our lives by the greater power of the risen Christ. In Christ we have access to the same resurrection power to overcome and defeat the sin within us. It is God's power made available to us in Christ.
Notwithstanding Adam's transgression that separated him from the possibility of participating in God's ultimate intention and leaving his progeny with its penalty to bear up under its pressures, sin was/is never in anyone. Everything that affects the soul of man, his very being, is from the outside, made effective by temptation submitted to by his independent flesh. Ergo, Temptation is only detrimental to man when he forgets God and goes against his conscience. Sin is only detrimental to man when temptation is acted upon.
The verse does not say you already have been raised up and are already seated in heavenly places, the English translation confuses the issue because it cannot deal correctly with the Aorist tense of the verbs used.
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
blueletterbible
Ephesians 2:6 paraphrased
6And (has raised / is raising / will raise) [us] up together, and (made / is making / will make) [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
You wish it didn't!!! ---- BUT IT DOES, AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO, IF IT WASN'T TRUE!!! - The translators knew what they were doing, and it didn't include placing the "wrong" Truth; and YOU KNOW IT!!! --- TRY AGAIN TO DENY GOD / TRUTH TO FIT YOU!!!
Paul -- 061312
---Gal. 4:16.
---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???
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June 13th, 2012, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
Notwithstanding Adam's transgression that separated him from the possibility of participating in God's ultimate intention and leaving his progeny with its penalty to bear up under its pressures, sin was/is never in anyone. Everything that affects the soul of man, his very being, is from the outside, made effective by temptation submitted to by his independent flesh. Ergo, Temptation is only detrimental to man when he forgets God and goes against his conscience. Sin is only detrimental to man when temptation is acted upon.
If not sin, what do you think it is that makes an unclean spirit, unclean?
What do you think of the law of sin that Paul said lived within him?
Thanks in advance
Blessings
Doug
Please read and support: "Modern Day Prophet" by Douglas Duncan
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Slogan/motto:
Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of your testimony; and love not your life unto death.
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June 13th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letsargue
You wish it didn't!!! ---- BUT IT DOES, AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO, IF IT WASN'T TRUE!!! - The translators knew what they were doing, and it didn't include placing the "wrong" Truth; and YOU KNOW IT!!! --- TRY AGAIN TO DENY GOD / TRUTH TO FIT YOU!!!
Paul -- 061312
I read the verse as it is written, not as I wish it to read.
The translators did the best they could by translating aorist tense verbs into past tense verbs, but that does not mean that the past tense should be relied on when forming doctrine.
Greek grammar includes perfect tense verbs, indicating an action completed at a specific time in the past, imperfect tense verbs, indicating an action that started in the past and is a continuous ongoing or repeated action, and aorist tense verbs, indicating an action that only occurs once but where the time of the action is not specified.
If we are to build a doctrine over the actions in Ephesians 2:6 taking place in the past, then the Holy Spirit would have had Paul write in perfect tense verbs, meaning that we once were seated in heaven but are not still there.
If we are to build a doctrine over the actions in Ephesians 2:6 taking place in the past and the effects of the actions continuing, then the Holy Spirit would have had Paul write in imperfect tense verbs, meaning that we were seated in heaven and are still there.
If we are to build a doctrine over the actions in Ephesians 2:6 taking place at some unspecified time, then the Holy Spirit would have had Paul write in aorist tense verbs, meaning that there is a definite time that we are seated in heaven and that time is either past, present, or future.
The main reason to translate the verbs as past tense is the aorist tense combined with an imperative mood, which means something that definitely occurs. Since that only happens in the past when it is an action by us humans, the aorist imperative verbs are translated as occurring in the past. However, God has the power to ensure that His word will occur at the time of His choosing, so the aorist imperative verbs used by the Holy Spirit do not always refer to past actions, but can refer to future actions that are dependent on God keeping His Word.
If not sin, what do you think it is that makes an unclean spirit, unclean?
What do you think of the law of sin that Paul said lived within him?
Thanks in advance
Blessings
Doug
I am speaking of origins when I say sin comes-came into man from the outside, intimating it is never of man, a result born of himself, nor could it be. The father of sin was Lucifer, now Satan who, stripped Adam of his innocence through temptation with permission thus forcing God to separate himself from the soul of mankind__but never taking His laws from him. Thus when we read, "the soul that sins, shall die", we know it is true in both the physical sense as well as the spiritual.
When Adam "died" that day, the Spirit of God returned "to the One who gave it" leaving Adam with a condition unfit for the habitation of God to reside. God cannot not reside in death__Adam needed things reversed in him. From this day forward would God affect man's life from the outside until the advent of Jesus Christ.
So, a good question might be, what of Adam's progeny from this point forward, like this to Cain when God spoke to him: ". . . . . . Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."Genesis 4:6-7 (KJV)?
Adam's disobedience-rebellion was instigated from the outside not from within him and through his flesh was it made possible because God purposely subjected him to "vanity" to test his allegiance__God having had much more planned for Adam for which Paul, later on would say this to Christians: "Quench not the Holy Spirit".
What we are not privy to is the rest of Adam's life which could have been lived out in righteousness before God whereby the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis, were indeed every bit sons by demonstrated allegiance.
To the reborn from above: Sin will always couch at our door and with a more intense determination because he knows his time is short..
Slogan/motto:
love others as u love yourself... and thank God you dont have to like them
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June 14th, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reasoner
A lot of confusion is caused when salvation is equated with going to heaven.
Jesus spoke of salvation as being set free from the power and bondage of indwelling sin. This is what is available to us in this life, the ability through the Holy Spirit to be victors over sin. This salvation includes the forgiveness of our sins, but it is so much more. In him, we have access to very nature and life of God so that we can begin to live in strength and joy rather than defeat.
The concept of our eternal destiny is another issue entirely. That will be determined at judgment, and it will be based on whether or not we have lived faithfully. This is the salvation (from the second death) that is yet to be revealed. A salvation without reference to sin.
So at the present we have a salvation in Christ that sets us free from the rule of sin. But in the future (at judgment) we may or may not receive our salvation from the second death. And there is no guarantee that having been saved in the present we will automatically be granted salvation into heaven. God will make that determination based on whether or not we have lived by faith.
If we do not recognize that there is both a present and a future salvation, then a number of passages will seem contradictory. But if we understand this distinction we can begin to see that while we have been saved by grace (in the present, from the rule of sin), our future salvation (which will determine our eternal destiny) is very much dependent on how we live. Whether we continue in faith or not is up to us, and God has clearly stated that it is the faithful who will be rewarded but the unfaithful will be separated from him forever.
Salvation in Christ is both a present reality and a future promise, if we faithfully abide in him. But to regard the concept of present salvation as being synonymous with going to heaven will result in confusion and misunderstanding that can have eternal consequences.
i dont think the CAtholic Church would agree, although it is not my forte to study the end times stuff and the 2nd death...
i think i dont bother trying to fully u/stand that kind of thing becasue what is important is living IN Christ... doing what He says, even if it is decidedly NOT what WE ourselves want to do... and a lot of times it is not. I dont always feel like loving neibhbor as self... When a peson does some terrible evil.. my 1st thought is to hate him... which is probalby the way most christians feel... but the improtant thing is to not act on such hate... and to pray for the person... not easy... but.. anyway...
i realy dont think what you say here is orthodox (just being honest, not difficult..)
FYI- I am coming from a Protestant evangelical background.
I agree that living life in the spirit of Christ is what God wants. This distinction (between being saved and going to heaven) is significant, I believe, because many evangelicals seem to not hold it. They have been taught that if you are saved you can be assured of heaven. And the idea that you need to live faithfully after being saved is often labeled as "works" and therefore not required- hence Luthers "faith alone" which many really take to mean "belief alone".
To your point of living a Christ-like life even if I don't feel like it at times- totally with you. And what's great is that Christ gives me that ability to live like Him if I follow him. But that decision to follow is up to me.
Even though I am a Protestant, in some ways the Catholic church seems to have a greater appreciation of the need to live rightly after conversion. For many Protestants that need is presented not as an obligation but more as an option. Conversion (accepting Christ) is often regarded as the finish line when in reality it's the starting line.
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