[Clete]

Chileice,

Your ignorance is glaring and does in fact (although unintentionally I'm sure) insult the Spirit which you speak of.
The Law is the alternative to God (the Spirit). The Law and the Spirit and not the same thing. Paul does not say anything about the Spirit "of the law". He is drawing a distinction between "the Spirit" and “the Law". He is not saying that we should follow the spirit of the law, he is saying that we should follow the Spirit rather than the Law.
You insult the Spirit in about a dozen different ways when you equate Him with a inferior Law which could never produce righteousness.
It is not your education I question; it is your understanding of what it means to live by the Spirit. It is simply not possible that you could understand it and make the statements you've made on this thread.

Resting in Him,
Clete


Resting in Him,
Clete

[Lighthouse]

To laugh at someone as they go to hell is self-centered. If we are Christ centered it will break our hearts. And in paradise we will be Christ centered, if we are His children beforehand. However, if we are not His [whether or not we claim it] we will be in hell ourselves. And Clete, you are very self centered.

[PureX]

To some people God is love. To other people God is law - specifically religious law. The Pharasees knew and obeyed all the religious laws - they were real sticklers about that. Yet they could not recognize Christ even as he stood right in front of them, and in fact they could only think to stamp Christ out of existence. They couldn't recognize Christ because Christ was not a law, and was not about laws. Christ was God's love and forgiveness, taken human form and expressed through human behavior, standing right there in front of them. But to them, God was not love, and God was not forgiving, and God was not human, so they couldn't see God even as he stood right there before them.

It's still this way for many, today. They go to churches and they study their bibles and they think God is a religion of laws and rules and dogmatic beliefs. And when Christ comes and stands right in front of them, in the human form of love and forgiveness, they can only think to stamp it out, because love and forgiveness is not what their god or their religion is about. Their God is all about dogmas and rules. And there is no love or forgiveness in it ... or in them.

[Lovejoy]

I have to admit that there are days that doctrine wins out over decency. But I fear letting the human heart rule over the Word of God, and for the same reasons you fear the reverse. Humans are not a trustworthy bunch. So I let what I consider the revealed Word of God make my creed. However, I still test all my decisions with my heart and the Spirit.

You and I will agree, though, that some (Lord, I pray not me) use the letter of the law to get out of compassion and forgiveness. Or decency.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Lovejoy I have to admit that there are days that doctrine wins out over decency. But I fear letting the human heart rule over the Word of God, and for the same reasons you fear the reverse. Humans are not a trustworthy bunch. So I let what I consider the revealed Word of God make my creed. However, I still test all my decisions with my heart and the Spirit.

You and I will agree, though, that some (Lord, I pray not me) use the letter of the law to get out of compassion and forgiveness. Or decency.

But it's humans who interpret the bible, anyway. So the existence of the book does nothing to protect us from our own evil. The Pharasees knew the scriptures better than anyone of their time, yet they could not see God at all, and they became the enemy of Christ. Today religionists think that their religions will protect them from themselves, when in fact their religions have only given them license to imagine themselves to be righteous when they are not - just like the Pharasees.

In the end we all have to trust in the spirit and wisdom of God to guide us. But for that to happen, we are really going to have to trust in it. But trust in what? What is that spirit? Is it a bunch of religious books? Or is it God's love acting within us, and through us?

I think it's love. I think God's spirit is love. Not religion, and not a bunch of religious books.

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by PureX

But it's humans who interpret the bible, anyway. So the existence of the book does nothing to protect us from our own evil. The Pharasees knew the scriptures better than anyone of their time, yet they could not see God at all, and they became the enemy of Christ. Today religionists think that their religions will protect them from themselves, when in fact their religions have only given them license to imagine themselves to be righteous when they are not - just like the Pharasees.

In the end we all have to trust in the spirit and wisdom of God to guide us. But for that to happen, we are really going to have to trust in it. But trust in what? What is that spirit? Is it a bunch of religious books? Or is it God's love acting within us, and through us?

I think it's love. I think God's spirit is love. Not religion, and not a bunch of religious books.

How can I argue with that? By saying that I feel "led" to believe in the Word and in Holy Scripture? That won't get us far. However, if love leads us to the same place, I guess it's cool. I don't want to be liberated from doctrine as much as I do hate and immorality. My one true love is Jesus, and I will do anything, even be slave to doctrine, if that is where I am led. However, He has never led me there. He always leads me back to Him.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

How can I argue with that? By saying that I feel "led" to believe in the Word and in Holy Scripture? That won't get us far. However, if love leads us to the same place, I guess it's cool. I don't want to be liberated from doctrine as much as I do hate and immorality. My one true love is Jesus, and I will do anything, even be slave to doctrine, if that is where I am led. However, He has never led me there. He always leads me back to Him.

I guess I would try to think of "Jesus" as you, or whoever happens to be in front of me at the moment. For me, "Jesus" is just a character in a story in a book, unless that character can come alive in the world I live in. The bible wouldn't mean a thing to me beyond entertaining fiction unless the story becomes OUR story - playing out here and now. And I really do believe this is the true value and power of the bible. I do see myself in "Pilot", in "Thomas", in "Mary", even in "Jesus" in some ways. And I see those characters in the people around me, too. This is how the bible comes to have value and meaning to me beyond entertainment.

I'm just not inclined to religion, I guess. It feels suffocating to me. It seems to be all about fantasy and magic, rather than the flesh and bone and love and fear that i negotiate every day.

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by PureX

I guess I would try to think of "Jesus" as you, or whoever happens to be in front of me at the moment. For me, "Jesus" is just a character in a story in a book, unless that character can come alive in the world I live in. The bible wouldn't mean a thing to me beyond entertaining fiction unless the story becomes OUR story - playing out here and now. And I really do believe this is the true value and power of the bible. I do see myself in "Pilot", in "Thomas", in "Mary", even in "Jesus" in some ways. And I see those characters in the people around me, too. This is how the bible comes to have value and meaning to me beyond entertainment.

I'm just not inclined to religion, I guess. It feels suffocating to me. It seems to be all about fantasy and magic, rather than the flesh and bone and love and fear that i negotiate every day.

I tend to find liberation in the Word. But I have to negotiate it in the Spirit, and sometimes that takes time. I am a fleshy being, no doubt.

As to religion, I am becoming one of those obnoxious critters who will not use the word. It is a relationship (me worshipping Him, He changing me to make me a better worshipper), or it is nothing.

[Clete]

Originally posted by PureX

To some people God is love. To other people God is law - specifically religious law.

Which is He to you?

The Pharasees knew and obeyed all the religious laws - they were real sticklers about that.

This is a lie! I suspect an intentional one at that.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Notice Jesus chastisement for having over looked BOTH judgment and love!

Yet they could not recognize Christ even as he stood right in front of them, and in fact they could only think to stamp Christ out of existence. They couldn't recognize Christ because Christ was not a law, and was not about laws.

Wrong again moose breath!

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Further, the words law, ordinance, Moses, commandment and command occur some 157 times in the four Gospels. The entire theme of the gospel message is "Repent (obey the Law), for the kingdom of God is at hand".

Christ was God's love and forgiveness, taken human form and expressed through human behavior, standing right there in front of them.

Not to them He wasn't! Oh yeah you say that next...

But to them, God was not love, and God was not forgiving, and God was not human, so they couldn't see God even as he stood right there before them.

The "God was not human" part of this statement is somewhat idiotic but otherwise you got this right! God was not forgiving because they were evil and unrepentant. Sort of like you!

It's still this way for many, today. They go to churches and they study their bibles and they think God is a religion of laws and rules and dogmatic beliefs. And when Christ comes and stands right in front of them, in the human form of love and forgiveness, they can only think to stamp it out, because love and forgiveness is not what their god or their religion is about. Their God is all about dogmas and rules. And there is no love or forgiveness in it ... or in them.

How would you know this? When was the last time you went to a church and spent enough time and energy to learn anything about the people who were there and what they believe and think about who God is and what He's about?
You and others like you on this thread who do not even believe that Jesus is God, or are in any way Christian in belief or in practice have a lot of gall lecturing me or anyone else about how I should act and what I should believe as a Christian! And those on this thread who appose me and are Christian should take note that some extremely evil people who are not saved or are in any way Christian are saying basically the same thing that you are. And if that isn't enough to convince you that I am right (which I'm sure it won't be) it should at least be enough to cause you to sit back and ask what exactly is it that is different about what my preacher says every Sunday and what wacko idiot atheists say everyday on this web site.
And I'm not referring to simply the basic beliefs of the faith because of course that is different but rather what difference does it make in what you think of as being right and wrong! The plain facts are that the world and those in it are evil and God and those in Him are not (or should not be). But if what the world says is pretty much exactly what we as Christians are saying then what good are we?
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If you think I'm being unreasonable then reread PureX's post and see if you can detect much that would be out of place in your church. Would he be able to say this from the pulpit at your church and not even raise an eye brow? I venture to guess that some of you will have to say yes to that question. If I hadn’t pointed out the flaws in his thinking, would you have been able to detect them? Would you have bothered to even think it through this thoroughly or would you have just gone ahead and agreed with it because it sounded nice and you don’t like what I’m saying anyway? Don’t be such a cow! Being led by the nose, or following in mindless herd like fashion, is beneath a child of the living God! Stand up and be counted for something, and quit worrying about whose feelings you’re going to hurt! Just find out what is right and have the guts to do it! If someone gets upset and rejects you in favor of hell then so be it! It is not your job to save people! That is God’s job. Your job is to do rightly. You do your job and let God worry about His. God is way more concerned about what He is doing in you than what He is doing through you, and so should you be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by lighthouse

To laugh at someone as they go to hell is self-centered. If we are Christ centered it will break our hearts. And in paradise we will be Christ centered, if we are His children beforehand. However, if we are not His [whether or not we claim it] we will be in hell ourselves. And Clete, you are very self centered.

Mocking the wicked is a good thing to do Brandon, especially when they are thumbing their nose at God and proclaiming themselves honorary homos.
Why would you want to take the side of such a perverted and evil person anyway? Even if I am completely wrong, where is the profit in allowing such a person to think that he has a leg to stand on with you?
You have successfully taken yourself right out of the game my friend! Now, no one cares what you have to say on either side! Duder obviously doesn't give a rat's big behind what Christians think and you are fighting against a Christian! On this one, you are now effectively a man without a country! Which, by the way, brilliantly illustrates the point I've been trying to make throughout this entire thread! Christians are rendered irrelevant when they tolerate that which is evil. Satan can take a vacation when good people do and say nothing, or worse, take his side!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Lovejoy,

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.
You haven't said a lot, so I could very easily be wrong on this, but just in case, allow me to warn you against do so.
The heart of man is exceedingly deceptive and evil. We are not to do as our heart tells us! Instead, it is our responsibility to find out what IS right, and do that! You are definitely on the right track as far as your development of a relationship with God but that cannot be done on any other foundation other than that which has already been laid which is Christ Jesus, and Him crucified, as told to us by Holy Scripture.
God bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Lovejoy,

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.
You haven't said a lot, so I could very easily be wrong on this, but just in case, allow me to warn you against do so.
The heart of man is exceedingly deceptive and evil. We are not to do as our heart tells us! Instead, it is our responsibility to find out what IS right, and do that! You are definitely on the right track as far as your development of a relationship with God but that cannot be done on any other foundation other than that which has already been laid which is Christ Jesus, and Him crucified, as told to us by Holy Scripture.
God bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

The word "heart" was misleading, Clete. I did not know how to explain that part of myself consecrated in Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. No, I do not use my heart in the fleshy sense. To be perfectly honest, even when I am posting I am listening to the bible on tape. I will never add or take away! My gripe is that so many doctrines we follow are already based on additions or convenient subtractions. As well, I fear subjective enforcement of particulars without careful, and heartfelt (theres that word again) consideration of the overall theme of Christs love. Thanks for the accountability, it is always welcome.

Psalm 38:7-10

Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written for me. I delight to do Your will, Oh my God; Your law is within my heart.
I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, oh Lord, You know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart, I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.

[Duder]

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.

Dear Brandon,

Dutch-uncle time.

First, Clete does not have a clue about me. He doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know what I love, he doesn't know what I want. Clete has no choice but to cast me in the worst possible light. He is incapable of doing otherwise. He cannot help himself. Because if it turns out there is one shred of decency in me, one little spark of grace, one chance in a million that I am actually the disciple of the Nazerene Master, then there is some small chance that Clete is mistaken about some things. And that is a possibility too horrible for Clete to contemplate.

I've said many, many times on the board that I am not a Christian. Roll that word around on your tongue for a minute - just get the taste of it. "Kuh-RIS-chun". Briefly, let every though of what the word means fall silent and focus on the sound of it.

Kuh-RIS-chun. Kuh-RIS-chun

That sound is a vibration in the air - that is all. "Kuh-RIS-chun"

Now, the point I want to make is that I am not a vibration in the air. I and kuh-RIS-chun are not the same thing. So if I tell you that I am not a Christian you must not attach any more signifigance to this statement than that. If I said "I am a kuh-RIS-chun" you would still not have any more information about what I am, because kuh-RIS-chun is a vibration in the air, and not the essence of a person or a Person.

When people make this vibration in the air it tends to trigger ideas in the minds of others who hear it. It causes all kinds of associations and habitual patterns of thought. The problem is, it does not trigger the same thoughts in every person who hears it. It means different things to different people. So I have gone out of my way to make the point that "I am not a Christian" - because when you hear the word "Christian", the thoughts that go through your brain may be very different that the thoughts I mean by the word "Christian".

In denying that I'm a Christian I am playing a game similar to the one where I say I'm an honorary homosexual. I am making a purposeful exaggeration to get a point across. And the reason I do it is because I don't want people to focus on any label I hang on myself - I would rather they decide what I am based on what I share.

So let me just add my voice to Clete's and reaffirm once again that I am not a Christian. I thank him for reminding you of that.

Now - on to the main point I wanted to make. When you first accepted Jesus Christ, where did He tough you in the strongest way? Was it in your brain? I mean, did you start thinking a different kind of logical thoughts as the result of having accepted Jesus?

Or was it instead in your heart? Did you begin to feel things differently - did you intuit the world from a new center? If your experience is anything like mine, then it is primarily in the heart.. This is where you know - not in rational-linguistic propositions but in the direct tough of the indwelling God. Minds are very good servants, but they are terrible masters.

Be very wary when someone instructs you to put distance between yourself and your heart. The heart that is occupied by Jesus Christ will not lead you far astray. But a head full of ideas get you into the worst trouble. Re-read Clete's points above, pray about it, and consult with your heart. That's where God talks to you. He doesn't leave you Emails.

Matt

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

The word "heart" was misleading, Clete. I did not know how to explain that part of myself consecrated in Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. No, I do not use my heart in the fleshy sense. To be perfectly honest, even when I am posting I am listening to the bible on tape. I will never add or take away! My gripe is that so many doctrines we follow are already based on additions or convenient subtractions. As well, I fear subjective enforcement of particulars without careful, and heartfelt (theres that word again) consideration of the overall theme of Christs love. Thanks for the accountability, it is always welcome.

Psalm 38:7-10

Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written for me. I delight to do Your will, Oh my God; Your law is within my heart.
I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, oh Lord, You know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart, I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Duder
Now - on to the main point I wanted to make. When you first accepted Jesus Christ, where did He tough you in the strongest way? Was it in your brain? I mean, did you start thinking a different kind of logical thoughts as the result of having accepted Jesus?

Or was it instead in your heart? Did you begin to feel things differently - did you intuit the world from a new center? If your experience is anything like mine, then it is primarily in the heart.. This is where you know - not in rational-linguistic propositions but in the direct tough of the indwelling God. Minds are very good servants, but they are terrible masters.

Be very wary when someone instructs you to put distance between yourself and your heart. The heart that is occupied by Jesus Christ will not lead you far astray. But a head full of ideas get you into the worst trouble. Re-read Clete's points above, pray about it, and consult with your heart. That's where God talks to you. He doesn't leave you Emails.

Matt

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


I could go on like this for quite a while but I think the point has been made.
And as for the first half of your post, words are not simply sounds that we make with our mouths. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences. And you will give an account for every idle word you speak.

Resting in Him,
Clete