Simply for the sake of completeness, would you give us your take on this selection from scripture?
1Kings 9 ~ 11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
What is meant, and what are the ramifications, of Jehovah not being in the phenomena? I apologize if this has already been addressed in this thread.
Peace,
SS
---Does that not apply just to that one event??? -- God is also found in gread wrath, earthquakes, fire and brimstone, floods, and whirlwends, -- AND QUIETNESS, and great stillness. God is in ALL, Darkness and the Light.
*
-------------------Paul---
*
I just wanted to sum things up, since it seems everyone is getting out of hand and off subject. Knight started this thread stating that he was disgusted about a story of a woman who gave God credit for her cancer. Since then, it has been my position to prove Knight wrong; not because I feel like playing 'devils advocate' or to prove something about myself, but simply because the Scriptures prove him wrong.
My opinion, based upon what I've read in the Scriptures, is that God is the primary cause behind all diseases, calamities, and catastrophes. I come to that conclusion because of every catastropic, weather related event, or disease I have read about in the Bible, credit is always given to God in some form or fashion. In fact, the strongest evidence to suggest that God creates calamity is the fact that He says so Himself in Isaiah 45:7! Anyways, using inductive reasoning, I have concluded that since God is the primary cause of calamities in the Bible, whether due to judgement of people or not, He therefore must be the primary cause of calamities in our lives.
Now I have made a valid case, and I have even backed up what I believe with proof from Scriptures. However, there are many on this site who oppose my view. Their reasons vary, but the majority do not believe that it is possible to make a final conclusion based upon what we read in Scriptures! In other words, no matter how many Scripture passages I post verifying my claim, those who oppose me say it doesn't prove anything! Now, as a Christian, that frustrates me and leaves me to ponder what other source is there to base our conclusions and ideas upon about God? Without the Bible, how is one to know about God's character? (Many say nature, and to that I agree, and in doing so, it only validates my opinion that God is the primary cause of such things as weather.)
Now, just to make things clear, I see no error in my opinions. Scriptures validate the fact that God is the primary cause behind calamity. If He is not, as so many here claim, then all I ask is that proof be given of calamity/disease/weather/catastrophes in which it is stated that someone or something else other than God was the primary cause of. I do not find it a valid enough reason for people to come up here and just call me 'stupid', or say I'm wrong, without even showing any Scriptures that state God is NOT the primary cause behind calamity.
An analogy of how I perceive this thread's current situation:
Joe came to planet Earth oneday and was given a book entitled, "All About Stop Signs". In the book, Joe reads about what a stop sign is and what it does. There are also several pictures in the book of stop signs at different streets at different times of the day. In each picture, Joe observes that all the stop signs are red. In the text, it is even sometimes stated that the stop signs color is red, such as "The red stop sign....", etc. After reading the book, Joe concludes, with inductive reasoning, that ALL stop signs must be red. All throughout the remainder of his time on Earth, all the stop signs he sees in life are, sure enough, red.
In the same sense, when I read the Bible, it states quite clearly that God is the primary cause behind calamity (God says so Himself!). Therefore, it is only reasonable to conclude that He is also the primary cause of my calamities, and everyone else's for that matter. Unless the book about stop signs actually stated that there are stop signs of a different color in other places, Joe would never assume otherwise. And thus, unless someone can show me in the Bible where God was not the primary cause of calamity, I will continue to believe otherwise.
God bless.
I would love to hear this message proclaimed to the millions of Jews who were being exterminated in Germany during WWII, or to the victims of the aparthide of South Africa, or even the victims of the proclamation of nations for their "Manifest Destiny." A good example of things that are not going as God had commanded are with Abel, when his brother slaughters him, or how about when the "Sons of God" had sexual relations with the daughters of men in the early chapters of Gensis, or even the building of the tower of Babel. The will in opposition to God is not God's desire and that is demonstrated in the consequences of the actions taken. If God had been responsible for such things there is no way in which God could place responsibility for those actions on us.
The ultimate demonstration of opposing wills comes in the Exodus, where the Pharaoh who declares himself god has come in opposition to YHWH. His word is going out to contrast God's own command for his people (be fruitful and multipy). Pharaoh is killing babies, and this is by no means a mandate of God (killing babies is wrong is wrong is wrong). To say that Pharaoh is doing such things by God's own will is just sick. God's desire is for the prosperity of God's own people, not for their demise (for his promise to Abraham is being remembered in Israel). God does not act before this because God only shows up when the oppressed have no voice. God gives charge to humanity to care for those in need, and if this is not done (or if it is actively brought about on others) God will show up on the scene.
To say that God has power over evil by controlling evil is to commit the same error as the Open Theists do, by giving evil an ontology. You have established that evil is a reality that is upheld by God just as much as the good, so that evil and good are equality real in this world. This is a horror, for you make God out to be the author of both good and evil.
Evil has no ontology. There is no substance that is grounded in "evilness." What has substance is grounded in the good (for anything with life is sustained in God). Evil can only be defined as a lacking. When one is declared to be evil one has become less than what God made that one to be. Evil is not a reality in itself but is a parasite to the good, thus being utterly contingent on what is for survival. If there is no good, you don't see evil, anymore than you can be aware of the darkness without first having seen the light. Darkness is not a reality unto itself; darkness is the absence of light. In the same way evil is the absence of good.
So rather than giving evil an ontology you might start with the good and declaring that good to be the reality of this world. Evil is not a reality, but is only a distortion, a play off of the good. And because evil is utterly contingent upon the good, evil can never be a threat to God or even to God's Creation, for evil will be nothing more than a distortion of what God has created, and can never thwart God's Creation on those grounds (it only ends up destroying itself). God does not demonstrate God's power over evil by controlling evil; God demonstrates power over evil by being true power in good, which, like light in the darkness, shows the evil to be the empty reality that it is (death which equals utter destruction and chaos).
God does not have power over evil through control (whether by micromanagement or by the final judgment). God's power over evil is that God is true power where evil only has power in as much as it participates in true power. Evil uses the power of God (life) for its own end only to find that when it has exercised that power it has only accomplished the will of God.
A person who is blind is no less a person; a person whose body is distorted by sin is no less the person that God has made that person to be. God's will is accomplished in all things (for out of God, and through God and unto God are all things). Even the blind man can be blind for the glory of God, as Jesus so eloquently states it in the gospel of John. A funeral can be one of the best evangelical tools of the church, for we have a body sitting in front of us, and it can be made quite clear that this is where we are headed in sin. But God who holds our life will not fail to raise the dead. Our life is commended to God in the funeral even as our body is committed to the grave for decay and rot. It is only in as much as our life is held in God that we have any hope, for we are creatures of the dust, and in our sin to that dust we return.
Both views are just horrifying to me, for the closed theists will turn evil into a reality so that God becomes the author of what is evil; the opened theists will declare that evil is a reality that threatens God and drives God's actions; God only comes in judgment once evil is out of hand (as if evil could drive God's judgment). For the closed theist genocide gloifies God, while for the Open Theist the distortions of sin destroy God's will for a person (those who are sick and deformed are less than people). Either way, I am disgusted by the trends presented by those representing the two views. God is glorified in the cancer of the woman; God is glorified despite the horrors of WWII, not through them (for they are a distortion of the good). So we had better come up with a better source for our views of God, and maybe that ought to be Christ, who neither speaks of God as open or closed, but speaks of God as the loving Father, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, and as the one to whom all the Creation is oriented, and from whom we are invited to sup.
Location: Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
Rep Power: 96263
Christian
Right Wing Zealot
Slogan/motto:
Do right and risk the consequences!
Reputation:
March 27th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekinganswers
To say that God has power over evil by controlling evil is to commit the same error as the Open Theists do, by giving evil an ontology.
...the opened theists will declare that evil is a reality that threatens God and drives God's actions...
I agree that there are open theists who believe these sorts of things but whether or not evil is ontological or not seems to be a separate issue from whether or not the future is open or settled. How am I wrong?
"The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders
There is nothing that goes on in the world that God couldn't stop.
He sees it all, we could call it freewill or we could call it the Calvinist view.
I know God's will must come to pass.
I am still trying to discern this.
Slogan/motto:
Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903.
Reputation:
March 27th, 2006, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentientsynth
ZMan,
Simply for the sake of completeness, would you give us your take on this selection from scripture?
1Kings 19 ~ 11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
What is meant, and what are the ramifications, of Jehovah not being in the phenomena?
I've never implied, nor meant to imply that God is literally 'in' a phenomena - God caused Katrina, but I don't believe He was literally 'in' Katrina. I simply believe the Scriptures claim God to be the 'primary cause' of such events. 1 Kings 19:11, in my opinion, supports my belief:
And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces...
After God 'passed by', the phenomenal events began. I believe He caused the wind, earthquake, and fire, yet, as the Scriptures state, I do not believe God was 'in' them.
In context, Elijah is upset because the Israelites have turned against God and are seeking to kill him, who happens to be a prophet of God himself. God asks Elijah to stand on the mountain, which after passing by, is stressed by wind, an earthquake, and fire (possible volcano?). Later, God assures Elijah, "I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him". In other words, despite what we may see in the physical realm, God is behind the scenes working everything out according to His will.
Therefore, I interpret the incident on the mountain to be a lesson from God to Elijah, that despite what seems like turmoil and certain doom in Israel (as was the scenario on the mountain), God also works behind the scenes protecting Elijah from harm (despite Israel's hostility, God has reserved those who have not turned).
God causes calamities, but we shouldn't look at the events to find God. I believe God caused Katrina, but I'm not going to expect or tell people to 'look for God' in the storm's havoc. Instead, we should look for God in the aftermath - see Him working through people's lives as they sacrifice their homes for refugees, or give their money to those in need. God was telling Elijah to not look for Him in the calamity, but instead, in the quiteness. I do not believe this passage of Scripture is saying that God does not cause calamities.
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
I agree that there are open theists who believe these sorts of things but whether or not evil is ontological or not seems to be a separate issue from whether or not the future is open or settled. How am I wrong?
Resting in Him,
Clete
The problem I have with an open future is that it assumes that there is a posibility for evil (as if, once again, evil had a place in this world). The posibility of evil is an affirmation of its reality. Evil is not a thing; evil doesn't take up space (or time). Evil is attatched to the good, feeding off of what is in order to bring about its own reality. But in the end, the reality brought about by evil is either nothing at all (that is a lack of future) or is simply the accomplishment of God's own will (as can be seen in the exhiles of Israel, and in the cross of Christ). The future is not open in the regard.
What is open is the present, i.e. us. We are given choice only because we are grounded in the reality that is God (we have life). And it is only in our present life enclosed within a beginning and telos that is God's that we are open. God has enclosed us within God's own will (life) so that we might be able to choose life or death. The future is not open, for God's will is the future of Creation. We will be moved from chaos to rest along with the rest of Creation, whether we come willingly or not. God's will is driving this world (for the good is grounded in God; and the good is reality).
What is open is now, and the now becomes a reflection of eternity. We can either participate in the good that is God's, or we can choose not to and find that we are unable to sustain it.
There is nothing that goes on in the world that God couldn't stop.
He sees it all, we could call it freewill or we could call it the Calvinist view.
I know God's will must come to pass.
I am still trying to discern this.
There is nothing in this world that is,
that truly is,
that is not also grounded in the Creator.
A God who must stop something is a God in whom that something is not grounded. God need not stop things, for God is the grounding of all things, and evil is nothing more than a distortion of what God has made.
God's will comes about not be fighting what is against God. God's will comes about because it is the only reality.
I hope everyone realizes that what I am saying is entirely grounded in a very Platonic view of the good, and comes directly from Augustine and Aquinas.
Slogan/motto:
Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903.
Reputation:
March 27th, 2006, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekinganswers
I hope everyone realizes that what I am saying is entirely grounded in a very Platonic view of the good, and comes directly from Augustine and Aquinas.
Peace,
Michael
DUCK!!!
Here comes the flak...
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
To recap, all of the following translations, speak of God sending an evil spirit.
God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: (WEB)
And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: (ASV)
And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the townsmen of Shechem; and the townsmen of Shechem were false to Abimelech; (BBE)
And God sent an evil spirit between Abim'elech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abim'elech; (DBY)
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: (KJV)
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: (WBS)
And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech; (JPS)
and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech, (YLT)
1 Samuel 16:14-16 But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. {15} And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. {16} Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
2 Sam 12:11* "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
There is nothing in this world that is,
that truly is,
that is not also grounded in the Creator.
A God who must stop something is a God in whom that something is not grounded. God need not stop things, for God is the grounding of all things, and evil is nothing more than a distortion of what God has made.
God's will comes about not be fighting what is against God. God's will comes about because it is the only reality.
Peace,
Michael
All things are subject to Gods authority, including Satan, demons and evil.
To believe otherwise sets up a system of Dualism
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Lam 3:38 From the mouth of the Most High does not go out the evil and the good.
I've never implied, nor meant to imply that God is literally 'in' a phenomena - God caused Katrina, but I don't believe He was literally 'in' Katrina.
ZMan,
Notice that I haven't disputed what you say. Far be it from me to put words in your mouth. I only ask for your take on this verse for my sake, as I've yet to see it profferred to you.
Quote:
I simply believe the Scriptures claim God to be the 'primary cause' of such events.
I would say that God is the necessary cause of all things, that He is the required precondition to casuality itself. In other words, by Him all things consist (Col. 1:17; Heb 1:3). Typically, I equate primary cause will efficient cause. For example, the efficient cause of a hurricane is converging winds toward a low-pressure system, evaporative heating of water, and the Coriolis effect, while the necessary cause is the uniformity of nature, which is the active outworking of God. But this, perhaps, is mere hair-splitting. In the final analysis, God is the author of all things and nothing that happens does so without His foreordination.
Quote:
After God 'passed by', the phenomenal events began. I believe He caused the wind, earthquake, and fire, yet, as the Scriptures state, I do not believe God was 'in' them.
We could ask ourselves, Would these things have happened had God not passed by? No. They would not have. God did cause them. But He is not in them, just as you say.
Quote:
In context, Elijah is upset because the Israelites have turned against God and are seeking to kill him, who happens to be a prophet of God himself. God asks Elijah to stand on the mountain, which after passing by, is stressed by wind, an earthquake, and fire (possible volcano?). Later, God assures Elijah, "I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him". In other words, despite what we may see in the physical realm, God is behind the scenes working everything out according to His will.
Therefore, I interpret the incident on the mountain to be a lesson from God to Elijah, that despite what seems like turmoil and certain doom in Israel (as was the scenario on the mountain), God also works behind the scenes protecting Elijah from harm (despite Israel's hostility, God has reserved those who have not turned).
God causes calamities, but we shouldn't look at the events to find God. I believe God caused Katrina, but I'm not going to expect or tell people to 'look for God' in the storm's havoc. Instead, we should look for God in the aftermath - see Him working through people's lives as they sacrifice their homes for refugees, or give their money to those in need. God was telling Elijah to not look for Him in the calamity, but instead, in the quiteness. I do not believe this passage of Scripture is saying that God does not cause calamities.
All things are subject to Gods authority, including Satan, demons and evil.
To believe otherwise sets up a system of Dualism
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Lam 3:38 From the mouth of the Most High does not go out the evil and the good.
You cannot apply these verses as generalities for the entirity of the scriptures. In Genesis chapter one God does not create darkness, but in the midst of chaos makes room for what is, i.e. light. God speaks into the darkness and divides it to make space for life, for reality inhabits space, and where there is no space, there is no reality. God must first make space before there can be life. So the first three days consist in God casting out the spacelessness (the void, the tohu vavohu), to make space that allows for life to fill it in the following days.
The Lord in Isaiah is speaking to Cyrus (that is the ruler of the Persian Empire, the empire that brings Israel into captivity in the exhile). And notice, he is not "evil" based on a definition of his person; he is evil because he does know God. Yet there is a reality about Cyrus that transcends his evil. Even cyrus is God's creation who brings glory actively to God through his actions, though he does not know God. God is the one who has made him and God is glorified through him, for he is God's creation (not Marduk's).
Why is it that the Lord goes on to say in verse 12: "I made the earth, and created humankind upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host. I have aroused Cyrus in righteousness, and I will make his paths straight; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward, says the Lord of hosts."
Cyrus is not actively engaged by God for evil but for good, for there is no reality outside of God (neither good nor evil). "Evil" that pretends to be something it is not will be shown for the nothingness it has become, for evil has no reality outside of the righteousness of God. Evil is not a reality. So I have not formed a dualism but a singular reality grounded in God, who creates what is righteous and good, and in whom all good things consist. Evil will not be sustained, but will only survive parasitically through the good. "The Father causes it to rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous"; even the life of the sinner consists in God (not in the sinfulness, but in the Creation, in life). Evil is not a reality in itself; evil is a reality only in as much as participates in the good.
The Lamentations passage begins, "Who can command and have it done if the Lord has not ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Why should any who draw breath complain about the punishment of their sins?"
The "good and the bad" here are anthropologically defined, not theologically defined. It is the good and bad from the perspective of humanity. But there is but one purpose in God. You have to rememeber that the author is witnessing the horrors of an invasion of the promised land. Israel has fallen (Jerusalem has been destroyed). This is an evil as far as the Jews are concerned. And yet God is responsible for it. But the New Testament and prophetic writers shine light on this; "God punishes those whom he loves." The punishment which is received as an evil (for it seems to use the distortion to correct) only shows that the only reality is in God, so that even those who reject God can be used to fulfill God's purposes (for Israel).
The evil is not a reality! The only reality is held in God, in whom the Creation consists (not the non-creation). God only sustains life; death is a mere absence of it. And death is truly powerless before God, for death only has substance within the context of life. That which has no life cannot die. And the one who gives life is untouched by death. Death is not a reality; it is the distortion of reality. And it is only in the distortion of the good that death has power. When death destroys life, its power ends. Yet God can raise the dead!
You are the one creating a dualism, for you have set aside two types of Creation, a duality of the will of God. God desires both salvation and wrath. And it is this duality that will cause you to picture a trinity that is schitzophrenic. The Father is wrathful while the Son is merciful. And what you have failed to see is that in Christ the fulness of the Father is revealed. The Son and the Father a fully disclosed to one another. So God is unified in purpose, which is a purpose for life and salvation to all. And it is not forced, for life is a gift not an obligation (if life had been an obligation, it would no longer be life). Life is a gift, and it is sustained in God, not controlled by God. Like the tree away from water, the life appart from God will wither and die. It won't become something else; it will only return to the dust.
Linear Mode
