On the contrary, we think our own thoughts. God just directs our steps, using us as He wills. We make our own plans, but God is the one who directs our steps. Sometimes our plans come to pass, and sometimes they don't. God gets His way all the time. He'll use someones evil intentions and plans to show His glory and cause good.
So... help me out here....
Are you saying that my thoughts are not part of God's decree?
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June 4th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
All Calvinists MUST agree with both halves of this statement or they are not Calvinist.
1.We are commanded not to grieve the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2.He (God) orchestrates (predestines) our actions (including those that grieve the Holy Spirit).
Of course God commands us not to grieve the Holy Spirit! Why would God command us to do otherwise? As for #2, God directs the steps of men, despite whether their motive was good or not.
After I graduate from college, God willing, I hope to become a commissioned officer for the Air Force. When that day comes, I'll have to take an oath, to solemly swear that I'll protect the constitution of the United States and for what it stands for. I will also swear to protect this great nation and all those that dwell within her great lands. I will be commissioned and commanded by the Commander in Chief to uphold that oath.
However, oneday, some terriosts highjack an airplane and are on their way to create another '911' incident. They are not far from my base, and my orders are to hop into my F-22 and take that airliner out - American civilians and all. What should I do? I had sworn to protect the very people I am about to destroy. But all is not lost; I must 'grieve' my oath to protect and defend a greater cause; to spare the life of many more innoncent lives.
In the same way, all things that God does is to display His glory. He has created some for destruction, and other's for mercy. Those whom do evil are destroyed through the wrath and judgement of God, and everyone is made aware that He is the Lord of all who carries out His Justice. He does not delight in wickedness! Those whom He has saved display God's mercies and agape love and glory.
How can we know of love unless we've seen hate? Good unless we've seen evil? God's glory unless we've seen the destruction of wickedness?
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
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June 4th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Knight
So... help me out here....
Are you saying that my thoughts are not part of God's decree?
I'm saying that we think what we want to think; we make plans to do whatever we please. But it's God who directs our steps. We can plan to go the lake with our families tomorrow to have a great afternoon of fun in the sun, but on the way, God may ordain that we all get in a car wreck and die. I may want to go into the Air Force after college, but God may have something else for me instead. Paul wanted to go north to preach the gospel into northern Asia, but God didn't let Him:
Acts 16:6-8 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
Although I'm sure the sons of Eli did not want to die, they did not heed the warning from their father, because the Lord wanted them dead:
1 Samuel 2:22-25 Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. And he said to them, `Why do you do such things, the evil things that I hear from all these people? No, my sons; for the report is not good which I hear the Lord's people circulating. If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?' But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.
The brothers of Joseph in Genesis meant to harm Joseph; thier intent and plans were evil against him. Yet, God meant it for good. He directed the steps of Josephs brothers, and ordained that Joseph be sold into slavery, yet it was all for a greater cause.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
We plan our own ways and create our own thoughts, and they are all evil. Yet, the Lord does with us as He pleases. If He wants someone to do good and righteous things, to display His glory and mercy, He'll 'save' them and grant them blessings. And He'll work through them to produce 'righteousness':
Hebrews 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Quote:
And would you then go so far as to state...
Therefore, God does not decree EVERYTHING.
He has indeed decreed everything. Nothing is out of His 'grasp', or control. He has created the wicked for Himself, just as He has created the 'righteous'. He uses both for His purpose and His glory. He has created everything and is in control of everything, working to bring about His purposes and glory in all the earth.
Just because we sin doesn't mean He sins. He is God; He can't sin. He can kill whoever He wishes, give diseases to whoever He wishes, save whoever He wishes, and He will always be right.
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
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June 4th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Z Man
Of course God commands us not to grieve the Holy Spirit! Why would God command us to do otherwise? As for #2, God directs the steps of men, despite whether their motive was good or not.
After I graduate from college, God willing, I hope to become a commissioned officer for the Air Force. When that day comes, I'll have to take an oath, to solemly swear that I'll protect the constitution of the United States and for what it stands for. I will also swear to protect this great nation and all those that dwell within her great lands. I will be commissioned and commanded by the Commander in Chief to uphold that oath.
However, oneday, some terriosts highjack an airplane and are on their way to create another '911' incident. They are not far from my base, and my orders are to hop into my F-22 and take that airliner out - American civilians and all. What should I do? I had sworn to protect the very people I am about to destroy. But all is not lost; I must 'grieve' my oath to protect and defend a greater cause; to spare the life of many more innoncent lives.
In the same way, all things that God does is to display His glory. He has created some for destruction, and other's for mercy. Those whom do evil are destroyed through the wrath and judgement of God, and everyone is made aware that He is the Lord of all who carries out His Justice. He does not delight in wickedness! Those whom He has saved display God's mercies and agape love and glory.
How can we know of love unless we've seen hate? Good unless we've seen evil? God's glory unless we've seen the destruction of wickedness?
That's nice and all, and I thank you for your service to this country but again, this is not Calvinist doctrine.
Are you intentionally moving away from Calvinism or do you not see that what you are saying here is in conflict with the Calvinst system?
"The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!! -
June 4th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sozo
buzzzzz....... wrong answer, but a nice theory.
Death came into the world through sin.
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men"
Of course, this has little to do with the subject at hand
Man's sin brought at first spiritual death. When God kicked man out of the Garden to the natural world outside, man became subject to physical death. It makes total sense that God would chase Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden to the outside-of-garden-natural-world that coexisted with the perfect Garden of Eden. Otherwise to what and where would God kick Adam and Eve out to? According to the timing of events in Scripture the imperfect natural world existed before the Garden of Eden was created. God didn't not create biting flies, mosquitoes, poisonous snakes, poison ivy, thorny plants, bears, lions, sharks, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. after the 6th day of creation. These irritating and dangerous natural creatures and phenomena existed before man's exit from the Garden. So, the death that Scripture refers to is man's own death not the death of other creatures outside of the Garden.
"But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing." James 3:8-10
"The glory of God is man fully alive."
---Irenaeus
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June 4th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Knight
You seem to exclude our thoughts and our plans from the "eveything" that you claim God decreed.
Did God decree our thoughts and plans or not?
Does God think for us? No. Does He control what we do? Yes. The thoughts you have in your head are not God's; He's not doing some sort of 'mind telepathy' thinking for you. Your thoughts are your own. You make plans for yourself. However, God decrees if those plans are carried out or not; He directs our steps. Sometimes, to keep us from doing what we want to do, or probably would have done, He hardens our hearts and ears so that we lack the ability to understand, as in the case with Eli's sons and Pharaoh. Other times, God may 'open' our eyes to His understanding, so that He may use us for His glory in other ways. Sometimes we plan to do things, yet God does not allow it, or, He'll make sure that it comes to pass. God knows the thoughts and hearts of every man for all time; He is working to bring about everything according to His purposes and His perfect will.
Just because God has foreknowledge does not eliminate our responsibility. As John Piper has said:
Quote:
[The] absolute knowledge that Peter would sin, how often he would sin, when he would sin, and that he would repent did not remove Peter's moral responsibility in the least, which is made plain by the fact that Peter weeps bitterly precisely when he remembers the words of Jesus' prediction. Peter does not say, "Well, you predicted this sin, and so it had to take place, and so it can't have been part of my free willing, and so I am not responsible for it." He wept bitterly. He was guilty and he knew it.
Jesus was glorious in the prediction, and Peter was guilty. Why do all four gospels tell this remarkable prediction in detail? Surely the deepest answer is the one given by John 13:19, "I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am." His foreknowledge of "all the things that were coming upon him" was an essential aspect of his glory as the incarnate Word, the Son of God.
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June 5th, 2004, 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
or maybe you thought you believed in calvinism, but it was really something else.....
Maybe...
I've always stated that I feel the same way about 'Calvinism' as Jonathan Edwards once said:
"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
God does not work all things without exception for good. Evil exists, and evil never produces good, never.
Ro 3:8 And [why] not [say], "Let us do evil that good may come"? ——as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
Romans 3:5-7 5: But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
6: God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7: But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
In this chapter Paul has shown that God's righteousness is shown forth in condemning the Jews for their unbelief. "But," says the Jew, "if our unrighteousness demonstrates God's faithfulness, when he condemns us for unbelief, is it right that we should be punished? Our sin gives occasion for God's holiness to be shown forth. Why, then, should we be punished for furnishing such an occasion? Speaking after the manner of men, is not God unrighteous, when he sends wrath on our nation for its unbelief?" to which Paul replies, "God forbid" or "Absolutely not."
Romans 3:8 and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
Here Paul is telling them that, though God's glory and righteousness are shown through the condemnation of our evil, this is not a crutch to do evil (as some slanderously chargeed Paul of saying). It does not say that the glory of God cannot show forth despite the evil of men. Evil does not produce good...But God can work all things for the good of those who love Him...
"i seek not a long life but a full one, like yours, Jesus Christ." - Jim Elliot
BH - You don't have to say those exact words to give the same meaning. I was referring to your entire ideology that was not differentiating between the two. God consistently differentiates between good and evil.
As to Romans 3, I think it is not as complex and mixing of good and evil as you may have tried to state things. Try this. Read the passage and just say to yourself, that
it is always good to oppose evil/sin
and/or
it is always bad of oppose good/righteousness
So when I read that passage, I do not doubt what moral considerations go where and where they do not go.
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
So the commentary for that passage is simple. God does good in punishing the wicked, every righteous act God does glorifies Him, yet despite this glorification, which is not because of the wicked, it's because of God's righteous justice, and of course the wicked still gets punished.
So God is good and righteous to punish sinners, and evil never produces good, nor does good ever produce evil, as we read and know, they are mutually exclusive. So you cannot make congruent man's evil and God's good, not thatyou clearly did that, but your sort of theology you have been defending is famous for doing just that. What is congruent is God's good response against evil by punishing the wicked.
Good never produces evil.
Evil never produces good.
But by responding to the initial moral deed, you can change things for the better or for the worse, depending upon your response.
TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9
Does God think for us? No. Does He control what we do? Yes. The thoughts you have in your head are not God's; He's not doing some sort of 'mind telepathy' thinking for you. Your thoughts are your own. You make plans for yourself. However, God decrees if those plans are carried out or not; He directs our steps. Sometimes, to keep us from doing what we want to do, or probably would have done, He hardens our hearts and ears so that we lack the ability to understand, as in the case with Eli's sons and Pharaoh. Other times, God may 'open' our eyes to His understanding, so that He may use us for His glory in other ways. Sometimes we plan to do things, yet God does not allow it, or, He'll make sure that it comes to pass. God knows the thoughts and hearts of every man for all time; He is working to bring about everything according to His purposes and His perfect will.
Just because God has foreknowledge does not eliminate our responsibility. As John Piper has said:
Z Man, do you understand what it means for God to decree everything?
There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.
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June 5th, 2004, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
Z Man, do you understand what it means for God to decree everything?
Surely God does decree everything! Why do our thoughts have to be included to mean 'everything'?
God doesn't 'think' for us, or ordain our every little thought, but He does ordain and decree everything that happens around us. He may not 'think' for us, but He does influence our thoughts. He causes certain situations to happen all around us to cause us to think the way He desires. He hardens people's hearts, He blinds people's eyes, He shuts the mouths of those whom He does not want to speak; He does indeed decree everything! Everything that happens in this world was/is ordained by God. You can plan your ways, BUT the Lord directs our steps, whether they fit our plans or not.
Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.
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