Considering John and Jesus were cousins, it's no stretch for me to believe they were in cahoots.
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. -Thomas Payne
I didn't say he was undermining Jesus. Just that he was adding some more ingredients to the soup.
But it's still the same soup.
Blessings of Peace,Chileice
"Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13
Well, maybe Jesus didn't want anyone putting beans in his corn chowder.
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. -Thomas Payne
I don't think he would have met Paul on the road to Damascus if he didn't. Seems like it was Jesus' choice. Saul was pretty content to punish anybody that followed Him until that encounter.
Blessings of Peace,Chileice
"Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13
One way to look at it is that he swapped one form of fanaticism for another.
I know you are trying hard to stay away from anything that gives Christianity any credit but you have admit granite, it is pretty dog gone rare in this world that one does that and that one does it so dramatically. Even if you just look at the situation as a non-religious person, what would have caused a well-respected, well-educated guy to do that? Seems like the explanation would have to be a bit more dramatic than "he just switched fanaticisms". People in the normal course of life don't do that. How many moslem terrorists have you seen signing up to go on missions withYWAM? How many Hindu zealots suddenly drop everything, move to Pakistan and join the taliban? It just isn't within our normal experience to see that or even hear about it.
Blessings of Peace,Chileice
"Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13
I know you are trying hard to stay away from anything that gives Christianity any credit but you have admit granite, it is pretty dog gone rare in this world that one does that and that one does it so dramatically. Even if you just look at the situation as a non-religious person, what would have caused a well-respected, well-educated guy to do that? Seems like the explanation would have to be a bit more dramatic than "he just switched fanaticisms". People in the normal course of life don't do that. How many moslem terrorists have you seen signing up to go on missions withYWAM? How many Hindu zealots suddenly drop everything, move to Pakistan and join the taliban? It just isn't within our normal experience to see that or even hear about it.
It's not inconceivable that the guilt of Saul's persecutions suddenly caught up with him. A conversion experience is usually tied to guilt somehow.
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. -Thomas Payne
Slogan/motto:
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on as though nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
Reputation:
April 18th, 2005, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caledvwlch
It's not inconceivable that the guilt of Saul's persecutions suddenly caught up with him. A conversion experience is usually tied to guilt somehow.
Jesus "caught up" with him.
Otherwise, he had nothing to feel guilty about. He was doing the work of God in his persecutions of the christians. According to jewish law, they were commiting blasphemy against God and stoning was the punishment.
As for the guilt factor concerning conversion, it is our remorse over our sin that causes true conversion. Guilt without remorse and then repentance, is not a true conversion.
Mrs. Truthsmacker!
Jesus may love you, but I have to work at it!
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. - Stuart Chase
Quote granite, "The interest he had was certainly not in the earthly, human Jesus, but a resurrected cosmic Christ. The Jesus of the epistles is not the man of the gospels."
Indeed Paul didn't care too much for Jesus of Nazareth. His Cosmic Christ was not a man but rather the divine force that is "in you." Jesus taught exactly the same thing when he said the Father is in him. And now we come to the contradictions...
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
but Paul didn't believe it...
1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,
15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received ...
15:35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised?
this is how, and he makes it perfectly clear by contradicting certain myths of physical resurrections...
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
45 The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.
46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
I'd say when Paul mentions "other gospels" that he's referring to ideas which later crept into the synoptic gospels, namely the myth of Jesus' physical resurrection [into the flesh]. Paul didn't see legs, but a light.
I know you are trying hard to stay away from anything that gives Christianity any credit but you have admit granite, it is pretty dog gone rare in this world that one does that and that one does it so dramatically. Even if you just look at the situation as a non-religious person, what would have caused a well-respected, well-educated guy to do that? Seems like the explanation would have to be a bit more dramatic than "he just switched fanaticisms". People in the normal course of life don't do that. How many moslem terrorists have you seen signing up to go on missions withYWAM? How many Hindu zealots suddenly drop everything, move to Pakistan and join the taliban? It just isn't within our normal experience to see that or even hear about it.
It isn't normal but it's certainly not unheard of. A devout Catholic interested in the priesthood wound up running the SS. A former seminary student was responsible for the Soviet gulag. Democratic idealists met their end at the guillotine they used on their opponents. Paradigm shifts happen, and when they happen to the right (or wrong) person, they change history.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
Jesus "caught up" with him.
Otherwise, he had nothing to feel guilty about. He was doing the work of God in his persecutions of the christians. According to jewish law, they were commiting blasphemy against God and stoning was the punishment.
As for the guilt factor concerning conversion, it is our remorse over our sin that causes true conversion. Guilt without remorse and then repentance, is not a true conversion.
Are you telling me that non-christians are incapable of feeling guilt and turning from their evil ways?
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. -Thomas Payne
Slogan/motto:
He is no fool who gives up that which he can not keep for that which he can not lose.
Reputation:
April 19th, 2005, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caledvwlch
Are you telling me that non-christians are incapable of feeling guilt and turning from their evil ways?
It depends on your meaning of "turning from their evil ways". If you mean turning from "really" evil ways, that even society would admit is wrong, to less evil ways, which God would call sinful, but society today oks ... then yes, man can do it. If you mean true repentence and turning, then no, man can not turn from it apart from the drawing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Psalm 96:2 Sing to the LORD, bless His name;
Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
Psalm 148:13 Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above earth and heaven.
It depends on your meaning of "turning from their evil ways". If you mean turning from "really" evil ways, that even society would admit is wrong, to less evil ways, which God would call sinful, but society today oks ... then yes, man can do it. If you mean true repentence and turning, then no, man can not turn from it apart from the drawing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Fair enough. Differences of opinion I can live with.
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. -Thomas Payne
Quote granite, "The interest he had was certainly not in the earthly, human Jesus, but a resurrected cosmic Christ. The Jesus of the epistles is not the man of the gospels."
Indeed Paul didn't care too much for Jesus of Nazareth. His Cosmic Christ was not a man but rather the divine force that is "in you." Jesus taught exactly the same thing when he said the Father is in him. And now we come to the contradictions...
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
but Paul didn't believe it...
1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,
15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received ...
15:35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised?
this is how, and he makes it perfectly clear by contradicting certain myths of physical resurrections...
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
45 The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.
46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
I'd say when Paul mentions "other gospels" that he's referring to ideas which later crept into the synoptic gospels, namely the myth of Jesus' physical resurrection [into the flesh]. Paul didn't see legs, but a light.
*
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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