[Aimiel]

People fail to grasp that Paul's work (writing about two thirds of the New Testament) didn't come about merely because he was intelligent or had completed more formal training than the other men, but because (being converted supernaturally and paying so much attention to The Holy Ghost) he had to rely upon his own relationship with The Risen Lord's Spirit, directly; whereas the apostles relied more upon their memory, and wrote what they had heard, not paying nearly as much attention to what The Spirit of The Lord was saying to them today (the day they were writing). It is easier to write from memory than it is to listen and follow The Spirit of The Lord, depending upon Him for inspiration only.

[Granite]

Either that or people think this whole Holy Spirit thing is just bunk...

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by granite1010

The passage you quoted has Paul rehashing second-hand information that was already a few years old. Again, nothing direct.

It would certainly help if Paul had ever documented familiarity with Christ's ministry...

But then you would say that he was just rehashing second-hand information that was already a few years old. I'm getting the impression that nothing would satisfy you.

Do you likewise conclude that Peter and James and Jude were unfamiliar with Christ's earthly ministry, based on the "silence" in their epistles?

but the fact remains, if all we had was the epistles, we'd be forced to conclude he was not.

Speak for yourself. I don't like to base my beliefs on logical fallacies, and you've already conceded that you are making your argument from silence.

But anyway, Paul's epistles are not all we have. We also have the Acts of the Apostles and Peter's second epistle, both of which endorse Paul, who claimed to receive revelation from Christ Himself. And we know that Paul spent a great deal of time with Luke, who wrote a detailed account of Christ's earthly ministry.

But hey, If you want to blindly believe that Paul was ignorant about Christ's ministry and went out of his way to stay that way, go right ahead.

[Emo]

I don't really understand this Paul vs. Jesus thing. The message of Grace was revealed directly to Paul from Christ Himself. What's the big mix-up?

Acts 26:14-18 sums it up rather well, which is just a recollection of what happened to Paul in Acts 9.

and of course there's also Gal. chapter 1 which Turbo has already cited, I'll just quote the verse.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

[Agape4Robin]

Originally Posted by deardelmar

An Agnostic finding something hard to believe, imangine that.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Turbo

But then you would say that he was just rehashing second-hand information that was already a few years old. I'm getting the impression that nothing would satisfy you.

Do you likewise conclude that Peter and James and Jude were unfamiliar with Christ's earthly ministry, based on the "silence" in their epistles?Speak for yourself. I don't like to base my beliefs on logical fallacies, and you've already conceded that you are making your argument from silence.

But anyway, Paul's epistles are not all we have. We also have the Acts of the Apostles and Peter's second epistle, both of which endorse Paul, who claimed to receive revelation from Christ Himself. And we know that Paul spent a great deal of time with Luke, who wrote a detailed account of Christ's earthly ministry.

But hey, If you want to blindly believe that Paul was ignorant about Christ's ministry and went out of his way to stay that way, go right ahead.

Turbo, bottomline: the epistles reveal next to nothing about Jesus the man. They are more evocative of myth and the cosmic Christ has more in common with Apollo than with the Jesus of the gospels. It's not just a matter of differing styles; it's a matter of differing messages.

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by granite1010

Turbo, bottomline: the epistles reveal next to nothing about Jesus the man.

So what?

They are more evocative of myth and the cosmic Christ has more in common with Apollo than with the Jesus of the gospels.

Peter and the twelve didn't think so.

It's not just a matter of differing styles; it's a matter of differing messages.

Paul did have a different message than the twelve; that was the whole point of God making Paul an apostle. He preached his gospel of uncircumcision (which he received directly from Christ) to the Gentiles, whereas the twelve agreed to preach the gospel of circumcision only to Israel. Paul went out of his was to make that clear in his epistle to the Galatians, particularly in the first two chapters.

[Chileice]

Originally Posted by granite1010

I notice no one here has actually addressed what I've said, which isn't too surprising.

Maybe if an answer was GIVEN every once in a while there'd be less doubt in the world. Unfortunately you people are not in the Answering Inquiring Minds business. More like the Believe What We Tell You racket.

Acts 13:
23“From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you think I am? I am not that one. No, but he is coming after me, whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

26“Brothers, children of Abraham, and you Godfearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32“We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “ ‘You are my Son;
today I have become your Father."

Acts 20:
34You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”

1Cor. 1:
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Cor. 11:
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

1 Cor. 15:
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

2 Cor. 8
8I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Ephesians 2:
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

1 Thes. 2:
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

1 Thes. 5:
8But since we belong to the day, let us be selfcontrolled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 Tim. 6:
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in his own time–God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

2 Tim. 2:
8Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 3:
3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 5:
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 12:
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Hebrews 13:
11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

15Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise–the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

18Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way. 19I particularly urge you to pray so that I may be restored to you soon.

20May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



Here are a few verses for you to chew on granite. How do these differ from Jesus of the Gospels? This is a broad sampling from almost every Pauline epistle plus Acts of some of what Paul had to say about Jesus. Now I would like you to respond and show me how this Jesus is materially different from Jesus in the Gospels. I have time so you can read all of the verse before you jump out there with some one-liner. If you can prove that this is something different, I will accept your research. But it appears to me that Paul is talking of Jesus of Nazareth who was born, who grew up in Nazareth, who suffered at the hands of the authorities, who was crucified, who suffered outside the city walls, who was buried, resurrected and who promised to come again. It also appears that he sent His Holy Spirit as promised and that he came not to condemn but rather to save just as John 3 states. So, anyway, I'm having a hard time dismissing Paul as some inventor of a mock Jesus who had no real earthly life.

I don't know what has you so bummed about your experience in a christian church, but maybe they were preaching the wrong Christ. I don't know. But , anyway, I await your response.

[Lighthouse]

Why is anybody still putting up with granite?

[Granite]

"Here are a few verses for you to chew on granite."

I appreciate you actually giving me an answer!

"How do these differ from Jesus of the Gospels? This is a broad sampling from almost every Pauline epistle plus Acts of some of what Paul had to say about Jesus. Now I would like you to respond and show me how this Jesus is materially different from Jesus in the Gospels."

To this I would ask: how often does Paul appeal to the WORDS of Jesus? The sermon the mount, the miracles, the ministry, the prayers? Next to never. He does, indeed, preach "Christ crucified," but remember, if Paul was taking the Jesus Story (a wise rabbi unjustly executed) and putting his own spin on it, what does that really prove? And I'm not exactly making this up. The idea that Paul took a local story and ran with it is certainly not a new concept.

The emphasis in the passages you cited is, of course, on Jesus' death and resurrection. Paul does not appeal to (very recent) local history and cites a nebulous "five hundred" witnesses, none of whom are named (the witnesses he does name are the apostles, which is a self-proving argument, i.e., scripture essentially proving scripture).

"I have time so you can read all of the verse before you jump out there with some one-liner."

Ah. You know me too well...

"If you can prove that this is something different, I will accept your research. But it appears to me that Paul is talking of Jesus of Nazareth who was born, who grew up in Nazareth, who suffered at the hands of the authorities, who was crucified, who suffered outside the city walls, who was buried, resurrected and who promised to come again."

This is what he talked about, yes. Paul's greatest next step, as it were, was claiming that Jesus was the promised messiah. Jews of his day and of ours deny this, of course, by appealing to the very scripture Paul as a pharisee knew inside and out. (Nazareth, incidently, may not have even existed in Jesus' day; there's no agreement amongst scholars on this subject, but it's a digression.) Here's the thing: Paul championed the idea that Jesus was the Christ, amidst stiff opposition even among "Christian" or at least gnostic sects. If the gnostics had "won," as it were, say at Nicea, Pauline thought wouldn't dominate today. He was one man, one scholar, one voice, one argument. His argument won out; lucky Paul.

As Paul himself pointed out, his story was worthless without the resurrection. Sooner or later this discussion boils down to the validity of scripture, of course, and neither of us will "win" THAT argument. Paul endorsed the resurrection story and ran with it. Many didn't and still don't.

"It also appears that he sent His Holy Spirit as promised and that he came not to condemn but rather to save just as John 3 states. So, anyway, I'm having a hard time dismissing Paul as some inventor of a mock Jesus who had no real earthly life."

Well, trying to "prove" the Holy Spirit was "sent" is well-nigh impossible. I wouldn't say Paul invented the entire Jesus story out of whole cloth, no. I would say he embellished it.

"I don't know what has you so bummed about your experience in a christian church, but maybe they were preaching the wrong Christ. I don't know. But , anyway, I await your response."

PM me if you care to know Granite's Tale of Woe (it's short and not terribly interesting, FYI), but I can tell you each church I ever attended preach the "right" (read: ORTHODOX) Christ.

[Chileice]

Originally Posted by granite1010

Chileice-- "Here are a few verses for you to chew on granite."

I appreciate you actually giving me an answer!

You're Welcome.

Originally Posted by granite1010

Chileice- "How do these differ from Jesus of the Gospels? This is a broad sampling from almost every Pauline epistle plus Acts of some of what Paul had to say about Jesus. Now I would like you to respond and show me how this Jesus is materially different from Jesus in the Gospels."

To this I would ask: how often does Paul appeal to the WORDS of Jesus? The sermon the mount, the miracles, the ministry, the prayers? Next to never. He does, indeed, preach "Christ crucified," but remember, if Paul was taking the Jesus Story (a wise rabbi unjustly executed) and putting his own spin on it, what does that really prove? And I'm not exactly making this up. The idea that Paul took a local story and ran with it is certainly not a new concept.

The emphasis in the passages you cited is, of course, on Jesus' death and resurrection. Paul does not appeal to (very recent) local history and cites a nebulous "five hundred" witnesses, none of whom are named (the witnesses he does name are the apostles, which is a self-proving argument, i.e., scripture essentially proving scripture).

Let me say that this is never unusual in literature. How often do Republicans refer to incidents in the life of Ronald Reagan to promote their agenda. They refer to him and to Reagonomics for example but rarely refer directly to quotes when trying to promote some economic agenda.

Paul was trying to give us the meaning of Jesus in our lives not recapitulate biographical information. Obviously he knew it or Luke wouldn't have been able to write his Gospel. Luke is a Pauline convert. Luke travelled with Paul and probably learned a whole bunch of the biographical info he had from Paul. I think you are trying to go back 2000 years and remake people based on what you want them to think. I guess we all do that. But at some point, we also have to take things at face value. I just don't think Paul was in some conscious conspiracy to co-opt Jesus in order to form some new world order. He was just a Jew who saw the light and often appealed to the OT because that was how he was convinced that Jesus WAS the Messiah.

Originally Posted by granite1010

Chileice-- "I have time so you can read all of the verse before you jump out there with some one-liner."
Ah. You know me too well...

Let's just say that I have detected some patterns

Originally Posted by granite1010

Chileice-- "If you can prove that this is something different, I will accept your research. But it appears to me that Paul is talking of Jesus of Nazareth who was born, who grew up in Nazareth, who suffered at the hands of the authorities, who was crucified, who suffered outside the city walls, who was buried, resurrected and who promised to come again."

This is what he talked about, yes. Paul's greatest next step, as it were, was claiming that Jesus was the promised messiah. Jews of his day and of ours deny this, of course, by appealing to the very scripture Paul as a pharisee knew inside and out. (Nazareth, incidently, may not have even existed in Jesus' day; there's no agreement amongst scholars on this subject, but it's a digression.) Here's the thing: Paul championed the idea that Jesus was the Christ, amidst stiff opposition even among "Christian" or at least gnostic sects. If the gnostics had "won," as it were, say at Nicea, Pauline thought wouldn't dominate today. He was one man, one scholar, one voice, one argument. His argument won out; lucky Paul.

As Paul himself pointed out, his story was worthless without the resurrection. Sooner or later this discussion boils down to the validity of scripture, of course, and neither of us will "win" THAT argument. Paul endorsed the resurrection story and ran with it. Many didn't and still don't.

Of course my point was not whether you or anyone else believes in the resurrection, but rather whether Paul's teaching on it is consistent with what is in the Gospel accounts. I believe it is.

Originally Posted by granite1010

Chileice--"It also appears that he sent His Holy Spirit as promised and that he came not to condemn but rather to save just as John 3 states. So, anyway, I'm having a hard time dismissing Paul as some inventor of a mock Jesus who had no real earthly life."

Well, trying to "prove" the Holy Spirit was "sent" is well-nigh impossible. I wouldn't say Paul invented the entire Jesus story out of whole cloth, no. I would say he embellished it.

Again, it is the same thing. Your original point seemed to be that Paul didn't follow from Jesus. But , of course to embellish something you have to have the original to start with. Of course I don't see it as embellishment. I see it as more teaching on the same subject, going to another level or explaining the idea in different terms. As far as your story... send me a PM. I'd be interested to hear it.

[Gnostic]

Aimiel said: "...you're calling The Word of God a lie"

Show me the verse in the Bible where it says the Bible is the Word of God. And this time please don't ignore it but show me. Put your Bible where your mouth is. Until you do, I'll call any writing on earth a lie as I see fit, and God certainly won't mind.

You said: "The Word of God"

You mean this...

2 Timothy 4:13
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas...

Unless you believeth in the Doctrine of the Lost Cloak, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Or maybe this...

1 Corinthians 11:7
... A man ought not to have long hair since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. ...neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Or perhaps...

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Or maybe this one which really pisses me off...

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

And no wonder there is such confusion since...

2 Corinthians 11:17
In this selfconfident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.

It's not Paul's or God's fault that you should insist on believing that every single word in his letters to his congregations and family and friends is "The Word of God." Who in heavens name taught you to worship the Bible? I'd say it was probably the preacher at your local church, right?



*

[Gnostic]

Saint Aimiel said: "...you're calling The Word of God a lie"

Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Well, Aimiel, I don't know about you, but according to the above I'm certainly the greatest adulterer on the planet and certainly on my way to the Big Roast. You know, when a beautiful woman walks past (showcasing the very sexy legs and fanny Almighty God blessed her with), I cannot but desire to have her [in my bed]. Well this is the truth, What, you'd prefer that I lie? Now what about you, Saint Aimiel, do you think Jesus was a liar when he said that? Or perhaps you have complete control over your Mind? Or maybe you're secretly a homosexual and spared from that sin? Or maybe it doesn't apply to you since you only do such wickedness on rare occasions? Or maybe the verse isn't really completely true so you ignore it? Anyway, whatever you do, remember that God loves you for things you'd never guess, and hates you for striving to achieve your particualr idea of "righteousness." I know all this because I've had a man to man fight with the Guy (lasted for hours), and when I delivered a final exceedingly powerful blow to the neck, he gave up in defeat and admitted it is so.

*

[Granite]

Oh boy.

Deep breaths, everybody, deep breaths...

[Aimiel]

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Show me the verse in the Bible where it says the Bible is the Word of God.

We are told to let everything be established out of the mouth of two or more witnesses. The writers of The Gospels (as well as the rest of The Bible) were inspired by The Lord to write The Scriptures. If one doesn't believe in God, then The Witness that He gives, which is better than any eyewitness account, of His Word and Its validity isn't available to them.

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Put your Bible where your mouth is. Until you do, I'll call any writing on earth a lie as I see fit, and God certainly won't mind.

If you walk by faith in God, then His Word means everything to you, if you don't, then it means nothing.

Originally Posted by Gnostic

It's not Paul's or God's fault that you should insist on believing that every single word in his letters to his congregations and family and friends is "The Word of God."

Actually, since God told us that every single Scripture was given by His Inspiration, it is His 'fault.'

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Who in heavens name taught you to worship the Bible?

I don't worship The Bible, I worship It's Author, The Lord Jesus. It is also painfully obvious who you worship, false gods who don't even exist.