Thanks, Crow, but I have to weigh your answer in with those of Yorzik and RightIdea, who both seem to be saying that the debate I remember lies within adherents of what RI calls EDF. There seems to be some contradiction, here.
Molinism .................. .X ............................. X .......... X
Arminianism .............................................. X .......... X
Open View .................................................. ............. X
The Open View considers all other 3 as "closed" or "settled" views. However, as you can see, the Arminian/Simple Foreknowledge view does hold to libertarian free will (LFW).
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.
If what Fink shared above is not enough to make you see the light, then you may wanna check out the article Bob Hill wrote concerning the matter here in his article Does God Repent? http://www.biblicalanswers.com/prede...d%20Repent.htm
If that does not make things abundantly clear to you then there is no hope.
Hey Quinn,
Long time, no see! Hope all is well with you... Thanks for linking that article. In fact, doogieduff has been listening to tapes of "Biblical Answers" from when Bob and I were on the radio, and recently listened to that show. It was incredible... When Bob asked what the anthropomorphism really meant, the silence was indeed deafening. About a year later, Bob and I put together another Open View script for the radio show, and Bob used bits and pieces of that show for the article you linked. Thank you for helping spank Jerry with more truth...
God bless,
-Jeremy Finkenbinder
Do you desire to make all men see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery? (Eph 3:9)
I might saith.., but it's conditional.. -
August 3rd, 2005, 04:58 PM
Jerry's quote:
Quote:
["God is not a man,that He should lie.Neither the son of man,that He should repent.Hath He said,and shall He not do it?"[(Num.23:19).
Hath he said and shall he not do? Yes, or was God lying to Eli to begin with?
1Sa 2:27 And there came a man of God unto Eli, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Did I plainly appear unto the house of thy father, when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh's house?
1Sa 2:28 And did I choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to offer upon mine altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before me? and did I give unto the house of thy father all the offerings made by fire of the children of Israel?
1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
1Sa 2:31 Behold, the days come, that I will cut off thine arm, and the arm of thy father's house, that there shall not be an old man in thine house.
I know what I said, but now....
Why?, because..Them that honor me..I honor..them that don't, I don't..
I changed my mind Eli, based on your actions..
Danny,
PS: Enyarts post was the better post period.
This doesn't mean he is right, but his initial post is more persuasive..
He is presenting an overview of his openness view and not boyds, building up to answering all of Sam's specific questions, so that when he does people will be more receptive to them.
I enjoyed Bob's call with Dr. Lamerson today on his show. It was encouraging to hear Dr. Lamerson speak of his parents in such a neat way in that they were Godly parents who raised him in the admonition of the Lord. This really seems to be evident in his great love for God.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16
Yes, my computer had some issues, but I answered your questions.
Jeremy,
Here are your own last words from the debate:
Quote:
I apologize for Round V being cut short. My computer crashed last night due to a virus, and I lost everything. I had to post this round from my dad’s computer. I plan to respond to Jerry’s questions in the commentary section after this is all over.
You never responded to my questions in the commentary section after the debate.
Quote:
Here's your verse Jerry. Do you see how the CONTEXT clearly shows that God will not change His mind in this instance? No matter what lies Saul comes up with, God will not change His mind and restore Saul to the throne.
No,the Lord here is speaking about His very nature,and He is using what He reveals to demonstrate that He will do what He said:
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"(Num.23:19).
We can know that He is speaking of His nature because He is comparing His nature to the nature of a man.
Hey everyone. I just printed out the first round. Looking forward to reading it, and maybe getting involved here. I'm sure Bob will do a great job, he has a remarkable grasp of the bible.
Blessings
TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9
Hey everyone. I just printed out the first round. Looking forward to reading it, and maybe getting involved here. I'm sure Bob will do a great job, he has a remarkable grasp of the bible.
Blessings
Great to see you, 1Way! It's been a while. Glad to see you're sticking around for the Battle.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16
Hey everyone. I just printed out the first round. Looking forward to reading it, and maybe getting involved here. I'm sure Bob will do a great job, he has a remarkable grasp of the bible.
I know what I said, but now....
Why?, because..Them that honor me..I honor..them that don't, I don't..
I changed my mind Eli, based on your actions..
Shadowx,
Here are the words from the "New Scofield Study Bible" in regard to the verses where the Scriptures speak of God "repenting":
"When applied to God,the word is used phenomenally,according to O.T. custom.God seems to change His mind.The phenomena are such as,in the case of a man,would indicate a change of mind"(Note at Zech.8:14).
The same type of figurative language can be seen in the following verse despite the fact those who follow Bob Enyart's version of "Open Theology" interpret it literally:
"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"(Gen.22:12).
If we use our common sense we can know that this narrative is not to be read employing a wooden literalism.If we take it literally then we can see that the Lord did not know whether or not Abraham feared God until He saw the outward act of Abraham taking the knife to slay his son,Isaac.
However,when the Lord describes His own attributes we can see that He does not need to see outward acts to know whether a man fears Him or not:
"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).
You never responded to my questions in the commentary section after the debate.
No,the Lord here is speaking about His very nature,and He is using what He reveals to demonstrate that He will do what He said:
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"(Num.23:19).
We can know that He is speaking of His nature because He is comparing His nature to the nature of a man.
In HIs grace,--Jerry
Jerry, with all due respect, the fact remains that when He says in 1 Samuel that He doesn't repent.... the specific thing that He is not repenting of... is that fact that He DID just repent a few verses earlier. That verse is not talking about His nature, but about a specific one-time event. He did repent, and He will now not repent of that repentance. That first repentance will stand, He will not reverse it.
Do you not concede this?
In regards to Numbers, this passage must be interpreted in light of other passages in which God explicitly states that He will do something, only for us to see that He did not then do it. There are multiple examples of this, the least of which is the story of Jonah. So, how can you claim this Numbers verse is universally applicable, when God - speaking in the first person (which I really love) - tells us numerous times that He will do X.... but then He does NOT do it?
In Numbers, He is speaking of that particular situation, as Jeremy pointed out. This must be so, because we know for a fact that elsewhere, God says He will do X, and then He doesn't do it.
"Hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Yes, indeed this occurs multiple times. Are you unfamiliar with such passages? If so, we can introduce them to you.
In Jeremiah 18, itself, God explicitly states that He said He would do X, but now He will not do it.
Do you not concede this?
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.
Here are the words from the "New Scofield Study Bible" in regard to the verses where the Scriptures speak of God "repenting":
"When applied to God,the word is used phenomenally,according to O.T. custom.God seems to change His mind.The phenomena are such as,in the case of a man,would indicate a change of mind"(Note at Zech.8:14).
The same type of figurative language can be seen in the following verse despite the fact those who follow Bob Enyart's version of "Open Theology" interpret it literally:
"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"(Gen.22:12).
If we use our common sense we can know that this narrative is not to be read employing a wooden literalism.If we take it literally then we can see that the Lord did not know whether or not Abraham feared God until He saw the outward act of Abraham taking the knife to slay his son,Isaac.
However,when the Lord describes His own attributes we can see that He does not need to see outward acts to know whether a man fears Him or not:
"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).
In His grace,--Jerry
On no, my own family's study Bible (he's most likely distantly related) being used against us? LOL I didn't forsee that one...
I see, Jerry... so what you're claiming is that those passages are simply man's perspective rather than God's perspective. (As you may recall, the debate is very specifically being restricted to discussing God's perspective and not man's.)
So, in other words... God divinely inspired men to write something in scripture that is 180 degrees opposite of the truth... simply because it's man's perspective?
Jerry, I don't know about you, but when I want to learn about man's perspective of God, I don't go to the Bible. Maybe the Bahgavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon.... But when I want God's perspective about God, I go to the Bible.
If the Bible is simply fully of man's perspective about God, then my gosh, what good is it??? If that's the case, it belongs in my trash can, not on the highest shelf of my desk and on altars in churches everywhere.
Would you really have us believe that God inspired the authors of the Bible to write something that is 180 degrees opposite of the truth... .simply because He wants the Bible to be man's perspective about God?
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have ... all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing.
You never responded to my questions in the commentary section after the debate.
If memory serves, I answered all of your questions. As usual, you didn't like the answers and found new ways to ask them. If there's anything in particular you would like answered, feel free to ask...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
No,the Lord here is speaking about His very nature,and He is using what He reveals to demonstrate that He will do what He said:
Wow... Yet another waste of time. I pose a valid alternative to your position, and you refuse to respond to any of my specific points... I guess things never change, do they Jerry?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"(Num.23:19).
We can know that He is speaking of His nature because He is comparing His nature to the nature of a man.
So, I guess Numbers 23:19 has nothing to do with God refusing to be bribed... Take care Jerry, and good luck in your search for truth...
God Bless,
--Jeremy
Do you desire to make all men see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery? (Eph 3:9)
Jerry, with all due respect, the fact remains that when He says in 1 Samuel that He doesn't repent.... the specific thing that He is not repenting of... is that fact that He DID just repent a few verses earlier. That verse is not talking about His nature, but about a specific one-time event.
Rightidea,
If the verse is not about His nature then why do we see Him comparing His nature to the nature of a man?
We can see the same principle when the Lord reveals another aspect of His nature,and again He compares this one aspect of His to a man:
"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).
The Lord spoke those words in regard to a specific one-time event but that does not change the fact that He can look into the heart of man.
Quote:
In regards to Numbers, this passage must be interpreted in light of other passages in which God explicitly states that He will do something, only for us to see that He did not then do it. There are multiple examples of this, the least of which is the story of Jonah. So, how can you claim this Numbers verse is universally applicable, when God - speaking in the first person (which I really love) - tells us numerous times that He will do X.... but then He does NOT do it?
The example that I presented of figurative language in regard to Abraham and Isaac should suffice to answer any verses that are set in a "narrative" that seem to indicate that God changes His mind.
Do you desire to make all men see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery? (Eph 3:9) 
August 3rd, 2005, 05:58 PM
Take care Jerry, and good luck in your search for truth...
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