[elected4ever]

Ephesians 1:5 *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 *In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 3:9 *And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Romans 8:29 *¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 *Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 17:1 *¶These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 *As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 *And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 *I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 *And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 *¶I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 *Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 *For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 *I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 *And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 *¶And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 *While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 *And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

[godrulz]

Classic Calvinistic proof texts that are also understood as consistent with Open Theism or Arminianism.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally Posted by SOTK

True, however, this subject, in my opinion, plagues the board now and pits brother against brother which I have come to not like. I agree that it is an interesting subject and one that I can feel passionately about myself, however, I think it's a shame that we can spend more time insulting and fighting amonst ourselves when we could be rebuking the many pagans and heathens on here in full force.

but according to your theology, that's how it was predestined to be. in other words, this was God's will and was done for his glory.

Maybe the reason why there aren't so many Calvinists on here anymore is because they sometimes feel they are not wanted nor accepted as fellow brothers in Christ as much as they once were.

maybe you should ask God why he predestined things to be that way

[SOTK]

Originally Posted by God_Is_Truth

but according to your theology, that's how it was predestined to be. in other words, this was God's will and was done for his glory.

If you say so, I guess. That's your interpretation.

By the way, thanks for proving the point of my earlier post.

Originally Posted by God_Is_Truth

maybe you should ask God why he predestined things to be that way

I don't believe He did. Maybe you should ask God why you're being a jerk.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by SOTK

I don't believe He did. Maybe you should ask God why you're being a jerk.

Well he wouldn't ask that unless God had predestined him to ask that about behavior which he was predestined to perform and which you were predestined to complain about and to blow off as just "his interpretation".

Personally I think it rediculous that because Calvinists are rutinely crushed in debates and the lunacy of their belief system displayed for all to see and because there are people around willing to treat people like the lying blasphemers that they deserve to be so treated like, that people think that there is some sort of big broblem other than their own theology and personal actions.

I say, stop whinning about it and prove us wrong if we are. That's what we are here for, isn't it? Unfortunately, several of you have proven yourselves incapable of intellectual honesty or any other sort of honesty for that matter it seems. But some of you have some integrity left. I say more debate, less whinning about not being on the winning side.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by SOTK

If you say so, I guess. That's your interpretation.

No, SOTK, that's the typical Calvinist interpretation. Please don't take it personally or get mad at me. I am not lying. Calvinists typically teach that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad to us, is part of God's meticulous plan that has been predestined long before the foundation of the world.

Do you disagree with them? GREAT!! But look at what we're up against, lest you think I'm exaggerating:

Origninally posted by Z Man

Far be it for humans to experience suffering, right OV'ers? I mean, who does God think He is to ordain that some guy be murdered, without giving him the chance he deserved to be saved? Or to have my daughter raped! She's my daughter, and God has no right to do anything to her that would offend me or hurt her!

... Please....

Originally Posted by Sam Lamerson, BRX Round 5

I am a little shaky this morning. As I was driving here (I drive by highway 30 miles to my office) a truck pulling a trailer was in front of me, one lane over. The axle broke on the trailer sending one wheel in front of my car, the trailer flipping and the truck upside down. While I was bumped from behind by another car and the truck ended up completely upside down, no one was badly hurt. I thank God that he was watching out for me. To be consistent, though, I must say that had I been injured or killed, I would thank God for that as well.

Lest you think that I have had a life without tragedies and this word is only a hollow song, let me say that I have had some very difficult times in my life. My sister was killed in a car accident when I was a teenager; my mother and father died within eight months of each other when I was in my early twenties and my house was destroyed by a car accident the day my father died. Meanwhile my wife was pregnant and we were pastoring a small church that could not afford to pay mea living wage, much less insurance.

I say all of this to let you know that as I faced these difficult times in my life, the fact that God knew and planned all of this before eternity was comforting. Comforting because I know that someday I will come to know how all these seeming tragedies ultimately glorified God.

Will you stand with us in opposition to those who accuse God of planning every tragic event and wicked act, and try to correct their misrepresentations or our Lord?
Please?

Originally Posted by SOTK

By the way, thanks for proving the point of my earlier post.

I don't believe He did. Maybe you should ask God why you're being a jerk.

This is a theology debate site. God_Is_Truth was just pointing out the conclusions that Calvinist theology logically leads to. Maybe you could point out how God_Is_Truth's statement doesn't fit within your worldview instead of just calling him a jerk (along with a lot of other people including me).

Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16

[elected4ever]

Originally Posted by Turbo

No, SOTK, that's the typical Calvinist interpretation. Please don't take it personally or get mad at me. I am not lying. Calvinists typically teach that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad to us, is part of God's meticulous plan that has been predestined long before the foundation of the world.

Do you disagree with them? GREAT!! But look at what we're up against, lest you think I'm exaggerating:



Will you stand with us in opposition to those who accuse God of planning every tragic event and wicked act, and try to correct their misrepresentations or our Lord?
Please?

This is a theology debate site. God_Is_Truth was just pointing out the conclusions that Calvinist theology logically leads to. Maybe you could point out how God_Is_Truth's statement doesn't fit within your worldview instead of just calling him a jerk (along with a lot of other people including me).

Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16

This is the lie told by the OVers. Instead of saying the devil made me do it, they say that God made me do it. I say again, Turbo You and your kind are liars of the worst sort. You are children of a lesser god who can be taken by surprise and your god changes with the wind by your own testimony. Until you stop assigning to God the evil that a man does and falsely say that foreknowledge, predestination and the ordination of God are causal and that evil is designed by God, you and your kind will always be liars through your ignorants of the person of God and His plan.

Just because you reject the foreknowledge, predestination and the ordination of God does not make them umbilical. The Bible clearly states that they are Biblical and you should seek understanding of them and not reject them just because you disagree with them.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by elected4ever

This is the lie told by the OVers. Instead of saying the devil made me do it, they say that God made me do it. I say again, Turbo You and your kind are liars of the worst sort.

e4e, how much more proof do you need? Please read the following once again and see that Zman does believe this very thing that you accuse Turbo of lying about.

Originally Posted by Zman

Far be it for humans to experience suffering, right OV'ers? I mean, who does God think He is to ordain that some guy be murdered, without giving him the chance he deserved to be saved? Or to have my daughter raped! She's my daughter, and God has no right to do anything to her that would offend me or hurt her!

... Please....

When I was very young I was taught that all things, good and bad, were predestined by God. All murders, All rapes, All kidnappings...the most henious acts that one could ever imagine, I was taught happened because God planned for it to and orchestrated every tiny detail of the crime.

Now once and for all, please stop accusing Turbo and anybody else of being a liar when they are in fact stating a very real truth.

[Christine]

If anyone is interested, Here is a through critique of the Battle Royale.

[elected4ever]

Originally Posted by Poly

e4e, how much more proof do you need? Please read the following once again and see that Zman does believe this very thing that you accuse Turbo of lying about.




When I was very young I was taught that all things, good and bad, were predestined by God. All murders, All rapes, All kidnappings...the most henious acts that one could ever imagine, I was taught happened because God planned for it to and orchestrated every tiny detail of the crime.

Now once and for all, please stop accusing Turbo and anybody else of being a liar when they are in fact stating a very real truth.

Just because Calvinist believes in a closed system and makes some errors does not give the OVers the right to to through out the baby with the with the bath water and adopt a for worse scenario than the Calvinist. God does orchestrate the evil that a man does against His enemies and yes, that evil can be and is designed by God and executed perfectly. Not only is God perfect in love but perfect in vengeance also. Do you believe that we have a mambe pambe God? God will use man's own evil against man and will lie to man and manipulate man so the evil man will destroy himself or to destroy man through His own personal action. If this is offensive to you and the OVers then so be it. God never ask for your permission or your opinion. We accept God for who He is not for who we think He should be.Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord I will repay.

All murders, All rapes, All kidnappings...the most heinous acts that one could ever imagine, I was taught happened because God planned for it to and orchestrated every tiny detail of the crime. God can and does many of theses things but theses are evil when it is God that causes them but they are righteous acts in that case. Who are you that you should judge God. God doesn't change just because His actions are offensive to your delicate nature and that does not make Him wrong. Seems to me you have a problem with the God you profess to believe in. You ether trust Him or you don't. All things(good and evil) work together for the GOOD of those who love Him.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by elected4ever

God can and does many of theses things but theses are evil when it is God that causes them but they are righteous acts in that case.

e4e, could you please explain this? Are you saying that if God causes evil to take place, it's righteous?

I truly want to know where you're coming from. I'm not wanting to be difficult but sometimes I'm just not clear on what it is exactly that you believe.

[Leonard A]

Originally Posted by Christine

If anyone is interested, Here is a through critique of the Battle Royale.

Thanks Christine for bringing this excellent review to the attention of the "Grandstand."

Stop and Consider.

Leonard A.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally Posted by SOTK

If you say so, I guess. That's your interpretation.

By the way, thanks for proving the point of my earlier post.


I don't believe He did. Maybe you should ask God why you're being a jerk.

last i knew you were a calvinist. has that changed?

and what point are you saying i proved?

[elected4ever]

Originally Posted by Poly

e4e, could you please explain this? Are you saying that if God causes evil to take place, it's righteous?

I truly want to know where you're coming from. I'm not wanting to be difficult but sometimes I'm just not clear on what it is exactly that you believe.

I am saying that God will trick evil people into doing evil things to destroy the evil and that is a rightious thing. God devises evil as well as good. He said so and he does both with perfection and to His good pleasure.

Isaiah 45:7 *I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[MyshrallBayou]

At the request of an "open theist" friend I have been reading each post as they appear. My overall observance of the discussion is that it does NOT matter what the Greeks philosophers thought or taught. It does NOT matter what the reformers thought or taught. There is too much room for subjectivity in trying to determine "how" someone came to believe as they do, especially being so far removed by time. It appears some would actually be surprised to find that may who hold to reformed doctrines of grace came to those beliefs BEFORE they knew anything about Mr. Calvin. The ONLY thing that matters is what do the Scriptures say and mean.

The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, therefore you always interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament and never the reverse (i.e., if you want to know what Isaiah 53 means, you find that meaning in the New Testament). When interpreting Scripture you must understand it in its immediate context and what it meant to its original recipients and then how that applies to us (i.e. John 17, Jesus high priestly prayer was for those immediately with Him, but at the end of the chapter we find out it was for you and me as well).

The debate SHOULD be focused on Scriptural exegesis ONLY and not subjective opinion. It is clear that Bob has spent his time espousing a lot of philosophical thoughts and ideas, chasing rabbits and giving fanciful story lines, but very little to no exegesis of Scripture. Respectfully, I could care less what his or Sam's philosophy is, but I do care what the Scriptures say. Sam has attempted on many occassions to focus the debate on exegeting specific verses, and it is on those occassions alone where any light has been shone in this debate.

To Bob I say quite playing these cute little games and start exegeting the Scriptures. You appear to be more concerned about losing some of your supporters than dealing with specific passages.

To Sam I say stay the course. You accepted this debate and you have a responsibility to see it through to the end giving your best effort (not for your sake, but for Christ's sake). Stay on the exegesis, that is the strength of the debate, and will finally determine the "winner", if there actually can be said there is one.