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Positive reinforcement of Open Theism -
March 16th, 2007, 11:35 AM
The intention of this thread is to support the OV. The purpose is to show the truth of it, and not the lies spread by its opponents, to refute the false assumptions made.
Please join me!
Okay, in response to a request made:
My favorite argument in favor of the OV is one I created myself. It is calles The Wonderland Principle.
The Wonderland Principle
God can only exist within a place that exists. Therefore, God cannot exist within a fictional locale. God cannot exist someplace that does not exist. Wonderland does not exist. Therefore, God cannot, and does not, exist in Wonderland. For God to exist in the future, the future must exist. Most people will agree that the future has not yet happened. This would mean that the future does not exist, and therefore God does nto exist in the future, currently. He will, of course, exist there when it is the present.
So, the future has not yet happened, and therefore does not exist. This also means that the future is unknowable. And God can only know that which is knowable. Something that does not exist to be known, is unknowable [cannot be known]. The future is such.
Sorry, I'm the Doctor, I'm very clever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Last edited by Lighthouse; March 19th, 2007 at 10:21 AM.
God doesn't sit around helpless to do anything just because he chose to give us a free will. He's confident that His power will be seen and His will carried out through interaction and relationship with those who are free to choose.
He's so sovereign that He feels no need to second guess His power and cheat by predetermining every single event that will ever take place in order to guarantee the ultimate outcome that He intends.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16
Slogan/motto:
Life is too multidimensional to reduce to a slogan.
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March 16th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
The intention of this thread is to support the OV. The purpose is to show the truth of it, and not the lies spread by its opponents, to refute the false assumptions made.
Please join me!
Well jees, if that is what you want to do you should begin with a statement of OV.
I take it that the the most central tentant of OV by whatever reasoning it is arrived at is that God does not have absolute exhaustive knowledge of what we will choose to do before we make our choices.
Now there seems to be more than one theory involved when we try to reconcile this with the idea that God is all knowing.
1. The future does not exist and is unknowable in such an absolute an exhaustive manner, therefore God knows all that is knowable.
a. The future can exist exist in a indefinite state much like a the spin of an electron can exist in an indefinite state of both spin up and spin down.
b. God did not create time but is Himself subject to its limitations.
2. God chooses not to know what we will do in such an absolute and exhaustive manner. So God's omniscence merely means that all knowledge can be acquired by God if He so chooses not that He must know everything that is knowable.
a. Knowledge cannot be separated from interfering with what is known when the knower is a part of the system (involved), just as is the case in quantum physics.
b. God grants us the privacy of our future choices, and this is an important part of what our free will means.
The only one of these which I disagree with is 1b. The others 1a, 2a, and 2b, I tend to think are all equivalent in some manner.
Now it would be nice if someone supplemented this with a list of reasons why we believe in OV.
Last edited by mitchellmckain; March 19th, 2007 at 12:17 PM.
God is All-privy of current events -
March 16th, 2007, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
2. God chooses not to know what we will do in such an absolute and exhaustive manner, granting us the privacy of our future choices. So God's omniscence merely means that all knowledge can be acquired by God if He so chooses
I disagree. In order for God to have the option to "choose" not to know what we will do, He would have to not even be privy of what we are currently doing. Otherwise, He would have to be able to "un-know" something He is already privy to.
For instance, I cannot imagine that a thief stealing gems from a jewelry store under the cover of darkness from some back-alley entrance while everyone else is asleep, means that even God doesn't see him stealing. Can you?
If God sees a person stealing, can He at the same time NOT know that the thief plans to a) profit from his theft b) attempt to evade getting caught c) lie to the police about what he did, etc. etc.
These are things even humans know about future choices. Surely God is at least as intuitive as humans are with respect to events we are privy to, isn't He?
Maybe you can make a case that God is merely "all-seeing" and NOT "all knowing". But that's not what you said. You said God chooses not to know. Can God choose not to know what He is currently privy to and thus already knows?
Quote:
b. The privacy of our future choices, which God grants us, is an important part of what our free will means.
Doesn't the concept of God's omniscience include the fact that He is All-seeing?
God is "privy" to even our secret thoughts. He claims He can answer our prayers before we finish speaking them. He claims He can tell when someone looks at a woman with lust in their heart. Surely God's omniscience extends to "the privacy" of our thoughts as we contemplate what we want to do.
Even if you want to deny that God is omniscient in the sense of "all-knowing" of all future events, surely you have to admit that God is omniscient in the sense of being "all-seeing" of current thoughts and events. Don't you?
God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we have no choice but to obey Him.
I don't like it when OV'ers say God is not omniscient. God is all-knowing period. Saying that gives ammo to the anit-OV'ers. Its just a disagreement over what is knowable; even the Calvinist will admit to things God doesn't know, yet they still claim omniscience.
"I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
"Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot
I don't like it when OV'ers say God is not omniscient. God is all-knowing period. Saying that gives ammo to the anit-OV'ers. Its just a disagreement over what is knowable; even the Calvinist will admit to things God doesn't know, yet they still claim omniscience.
Open Theists do affirm that God is omniscient (knows all that is knowable). We differ on the understanding of omniscience and the nature of the future. If the future was logically and biblically exhaustively knowable, we would affirm this.
Likewise, omnipotence is not compromised by admitting that God cannot do logically absurd things like visit the U.S.S. Enterprise flying around the universe.
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
Slogan/motto:
Life is too multidimensional to reduce to a slogan.
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March 16th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Jobeth, is your objection merely requiring a little bit more accurate wording?
2. God chooses not to know what we will choose to do in an absolute and exhaustive manner, granting us the privacy of our future choices, when we exercise our free will.
So His choosing not to know was not meant to include not knowing what we are planning to do. And there should be a distinction between the things we do out of habit and the rare instances in our life when we actually excercise our free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeth
In order for God to have the option to "choose" not to know what we will do, He would have to not even be privy of what we are currently doing. Otherwise, He would have to be able to "un-know" something He is already privy to.
God chooses not to look at the future. That is all. He still guesses what we will do most of the time with perfect accuracy. Sure He knows what we are thinking or planning. This is still not the same thing as knowing absolutely and exhaustively all our future choices in response to how He chooses to interact with us and the world. This is the difference between human free will and God's abolute control of everything we do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeth
These are things even humans know about future choices. Surely God is at least as intuitive as humans are with respect to events we are privy to, isn't He?
Sure, and because of its habitual nature, sin makes human beings especially predictable. But this predictability is not God desire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeth
Maybe you can make a case that God is merely "all-seeing" and NOT "all knowing". But that's not what you said. You said God chooses not to know. Can God choose not to know what He is currently privy to and thus already knows?
Doesn't the concept of God's omniscience include the fact that He is All-seeing?
Absolutely. God is not limited by human definitions. Knowledge serves God not the other way around. Omniscience means that God can know whatever He chooses to know, it does not mean that He must know things whether He wants to or not. God gives us free will and this means that He allows our future choices excercising our free will to exist in an indefinite state which He does not disturb or interfere with in order to predict us absolutely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeth
Even if you want to deny that God is omniscient in the sense of "all-knowing" of all future events, surely you have to admit that God is omniscient in the sense of being "all-seeing" of current thoughts and events. Don't you?
I do not believe the God limits Himself in that way, but I would not say that He cannot limit Himself in that way if He chose to. But yes I believe that God is all seeing as part of His utterly intimate involvement with every aspect of the world.
Slogan/motto:
Life is too multidimensional to reduce to a slogan.
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March 16th, 2007, 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
I don't like it when OV'ers say God is not omniscient. God is all-knowing period. Saying that gives ammo to the anit-OV'ers. Its just a disagreement over what is knowable; even the Calvinist will admit to things God doesn't know, yet they still claim omniscience.
Well I am sorry but you are going to have to accept that there is diversity of belief in these things, though godrulz is correct in that is a matter of differences in how we think that omniscience can be understood in a consistent non-contradictory manner.
I don't believe in a God limited to omniscience and omnipotence such that God cannot do anything which contradicts these definitions. I believe in a God which is capable of risk, sacrifice and self-limitation. I believe that God CAN make a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, for that is something a being can do who is capable of limiting himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Its just a disagreement over what is knowable; even the Calvinist will admit to things God doesn't know, yet they still claim omniscience.
No it is not just a matter of what is knowable. It is a matter of the fact that knowledge and interference cannot be separated. It is trivial for God to predict the future if He so chooses for with an act of power He can control and determine the future. For example, He can simply annihate us and remove all the uncertainty in the world with one fell swoop. Life and our free will exists because He wishes it to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by godrulz
Likewise, omnipotence is not compromised by admitting that God cannot do logically absurd things like visit the U.S.S. Enterprise flying around the universe.
This must not be construed as a limitation upon God. A logical contradiction is simply meaningless. So to say that God cannot do such a thing is not really saying anything at all. Though I cannot really see anything logically contradictory about godrulz particular example.
People who are interested in Open Theism should know that it is not blaspheming God. It is not blasphemy to say God does not know the future. Scripture does show God has some future knowledge, but our human tendencies take the future knowledge he has and assume he has more than he says he does.
1. The Bible doesn't say anywhere he has total and complete future knowledge of every event. Scripture does say he has some future knowledge, but it not right to add to scripture's account and say that "some" means "all". Instead, we should say "some" means "some."
2. Future is not necessary for God to be in control. He at any moment could do anything with creation he wished to do, so even without future knowledge, God is still extremely powerful, and "extremely" is an understatement.
3. Love requires freedom. If a man loves a woman, he doesn't force her to love him back by trapping her. Love must be allow freedom. If God is love, he wouldn't foreordain every single last thing in the world. Even though God does make future plans, he does not make every single thing he plans come about if he sees fit.
Take Jonah. Sent to prophesy that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. God told him to go. But 40 days later, God didn't fulfill the prophecy. He instead changed his mind because the people changed their hearts. Had the future really been known, God would have known he wasn't going to destroy the city in 40 days and would not have said he would.
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