Bob Enyart LiveGreetings to the brightest audience in the country. I am Bob Enyart...... discuss Bob's shows here! Bob's show is aired live on the radio and rebroadcast at: KGOV.com
* The Infidel Guy: also known as atheist Reggie Finley, discusses the existence of God with Bob. This debate lasted 4 hours, and we'll air another 30 min. segment tomorrow!
Today's Resource: If you enjoyed the short segment of today's atheism debate, you'd probably really have fun reading this fascinating debate, Does God Exist? Bob Enyart vs. Zakath!
It seems Mr. Enyart believes in a very sectarian, limited god. One who does not have overall control and who is unaware of what will happen in the future. In other words, a god who is limited in power and subject to relative time. Oddly enough, Mr. Enyart says that he goes against a Greek conception of god, but actually his conception is very much in line with the Greek gods who were limited in power (usually exhibiting some amount of power in some particular aspect of the world or universe) and who were not in full knowledge of the future.
Mr. Enyart only addresses two theistic philosophies: fatalist theism and open theism - basically implying that one either believes all events are predestined and thus automatically God's will, or that one believes that God hasn't predestined anything and doesn't know the future exactly but is thus saved from being responsible for seemingly "evil" actions or events. This argument is fallacious because there is another option. It is possible for a supreme being to have knowledge of the future, yet not be directly responsible for every occuring event in the universe. The presumption that Mr. Enyart makes - the only presumption wherefrom a mutually exclusive situation arises in the nature of God - is that of the idea that God creates according to His sole desires. If we say that God creates everything (that is created) with only His desires in mind, then if He is all-knowing, it must be logically admitted that all events and outcomes are this omniscient God's predestined plan. In order to avoid this reasoning, Mr. Enyart eliminates the idea that God is all-knowing. But clearly there is another option, as I have mentioned. Instead of eliminating God's omniscience, we can eliminate the idea that God creates solely for His desire. And actually, this makes most sense. Simply ask yourselves, what fulfillment can an eternal and infallible God find in created, temporal, decaying material objects? I think the answer is obvious. A Supreme Being would find no fulfillment in such inferior manifestations. And actually, this Supreme God would only take enjoyment in eternal things. This is a key to understanding why God cares about individual souls. It invariably shows - and backed up by the testament of religious texts like the Bible, Koran and Vedas - that individual souls must also be eternal beings because God's concern for them is continually exhibited. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the reconciling point. After we conclude that God would not create according to His sole desires, the next obvious question is, "then whose desires constitute creation?" Now that we understand eternal souls to exist, we automatically have a second party that can fill that obligation.
I hope everyone will give this some serious thought. I look forward to all the questions and arguments. And I don't know if Mr. Enyart frequents his own forums, but I would definitely like to deliberate with him on these ideas and see what we come out with.
To give everyone some background information, I grew up siding with my father on religious and philosophical issues, which were more or less atheist or agnostic. At around the age of 18 I began studying various religious philosophies and for just over the last four years have been studying and practicing Vedanta as per the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition. I have frequented Reginald Finley's (Infidel Guy) website and after hearing this first portion of his and Bob Enyart's discussion, I have become very interested in discussing these issues with Mr Enyart as well as others who support his philosophy.
Slogan/motto:
"Life is like a cafeteria. You can choose what you want, but you must pay for what you take!"
Reputation:
March 28th, 2007, 04:30 AM
Why are you not as concerned to discuss things with Reggie Finley who denies your god as well?
and as for your statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by amjiva
It is possible for a supreme being to have knowledge of the future, yet not be directly responsible for every occuring event in the universe.
Simply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.
creation speaks to me
i'm stricken to my knees
in reverence and fear
forever my Almighty
the heavens in your hand
surpass the grains of sand
who am i before you
elieonai eli adullam
Stavesacre ~ At the Moment
Simply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.
“There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.
How do you figure this? (straight question, I'm curious to see your reasoning)
Would you say since He is outside of time, He is able to "fast-forward" the world and see what free will choices will be made, and then "rewind" back to whatever point and set up a contingency, or throw in a prophesy?
Marge: "Aren't you going to give him the last rites?"
Rev. Lovejoy: "That's Catholic, Marge - you might as well ask me to do a voodoo dance."
"Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered the next round.
Why are you not as concerned to discuss things with Reggie Finley who denies your god as well?
and as for your statementSimply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.
You're going to have to show where I am "simply wrong" instead of just making that assertion. On the relative platform we have choices, and we make them to the best of our knowledge and ability. In the meantime, God is absolute and beyond relative time. He knows what we choose before we choose it, yet this does not mean that God is thus forcing us to choose one way and not another. God's having, what is to us, foreknowledge does not constitute Him exhibiting force against free will.
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.
I agree that God is outside or transcendental to our relative time, but I think that even if we were to say that God knows our future due to some omnipotent insight, that still would not necessarily constitute the end of our free will. Then again, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by "omnipotent insight."
Slogan/motto:
Hola, amigos, I know it's been a long time since I rapped at ya...
Reputation:
March 28th, 2007, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaquero45
How do you figure this? (straight question, I'm curious to see your reasoning)
Would you say since He is outside of time, He is able to "fast-forward" the world and see what free will choices will be made, and then "rewind" back to whatever point and set up a contingency, or throw in a prophesy?
It took me a while to understand how this could be, but now I agree that frewill and foreknowledge are compatible.
It is easier to understand if you realize that someone can have knowledge of what you did yesterday, and this does not mean you did it without freewill.
It is more difficult to realize that someone (a god) could have knowledge of what you will do tomorrow without violating your free will to do it.
It took me a while to understand how this could be, but now I agree that frewill and foreknowledge are compatible.
Freewill and foreknowledge ARE compatible.
yet...
Freewill and EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge are not compatible.
Quote:
It is easier to understand if you realize that someone can have knowledge of what you did yesterday, and this does not mean you did it without freewill.
Knowledge of the past isn't by definition "FOREknowledge", instead that might be called "PASTknowledge" or simply "knowledge". The "FORE" in foreknowledge stands for beFORE, were you aware of that?
Quote:
It is more difficult to realize that someone (a god) could have knowledge of what you will do tomorrow without violating your free will to do it.
And exhaustive foreknowledge adds yet another element to the mix.
What is "exhaustive foreknowledge" exactly, and how is it not compatible with free will?
Basically "exhaustive foreknowledge" is stating that the future is closed and every event that has ever occurred was set up and put forth by God.
Free will is synonymous with the word "will". To have a will is to have the ability to do otherwise. So having a will is not compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge where every decision made by man is already planned out.
Basically "exhaustive foreknowledge" is stating that the future is closed and every event that has ever occurred was set up and put forth by God.
Free will is synonymous with the word "will". To have a will is to have the ability to do otherwise. So having a will is not compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge where every decision made by man is already planned out.
I see. And I agree. But I also think it is a matter of perspective. God is coming from the absolute perspective where all things are known - past, present and future - whereas we are coming from the relative perspective where, although known by God, we must make day-to-day decisions to the best of our knowledge. The real significance in the grand scheme of things is not whether we turn right or left, but deals directly with the connection we make with the eternal God.
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