[Jefferson]

Rev. Fred Doubts God, Believes in Abortion

This is the show from Thursday July 5th, 2007.

FUNNIEST QUOTE OF THE SHOW:

Rev. Fred: Can you explain something to me? If God thought that killing embryos was such a bad thing, how come He did so much of it Himself and instructed us to do the same thing?

Bob Enyart: ...Do you think it's unjust for God to bring judgment to a wicked world?

Rev. Fred: Well, we're kind of getting off subject here.

SUMMARY:

* Reverend Fred Debates Bob: based on Exodus 21:22-23, the Rev. Fred (last name and city withheld on request) claims that the Bible does not prohibit abortion. This Exodus passage about criminal justice describes a physical assault that causes collateral damage to a pregnant woman and injuries her unborn child. If the passage describes a miscarriage, then this pro-abortion interpretation has some justification; if the passage describes a premature birth, then this passage advocates the death penalty for a criminal who causes the death of an unborn child (like Laci Peterson's son Conner).

* Exodus 21:22 Speaks of Premature Birth: and does not use the Hebrew word for miscarriage, which is shaw-kole. If Moses had used the term miscarriage, meaning the baby came out dead, and then required only a monetary fine as the law there commands, that could indicate a less than human value for the life of the fetus. However, because Exodus 21:22 speaks of pre-mature birth, the passage does not teach a lesser value for the life of an unborn child, as contended by those who misunderstand this text. The author Moses mentions the idea of a baby coming out of the womb twice within three chapters. In Exodus 23:26, he uses the Hebrew word for miscarriage, speaking of barrenness and shaw-kole (miscarriage). But the word at Exodus 21:22 is not the word for miscarriage, but is yaw-tsaw, and means to come out, come forth, bring forth, and has no connotation of death but in fact the opposite. The Hebrew Scriptures use yaw-tsaw 1,043 times beginning with Genesis 1:24 where God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature..." In Genesis and Exodus alone Moses uses this word about 150 times such as in Genesis 25 describing the births of twins Jacob and Esau. Thus the Mosaic law requires that the criminal only pay financial restitution to the pregnant woman whom he injured if she " gives birth prematurely," but that he pay with his life if harm follows, and the unborn child dies, "life for life."

* Scripture Teaches Sanctity of Unborn Life: Psalm 139 speaks of the marvelous work of God forming the child in the womb. The New Testament reports the circumstance of two unborn children who came within proximity of each other, and sensing the presence of the baby Jesus who was developing within Mary, the little unborn John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb for joy. Pro-choice child-killers such as the Rev. Fred overlook such awesome biblical pictures of the unborn child.

Today's Resource: Listen to Bob's fascinating Bible study album called, The Law of Moses! Bob has a best-selling manuscript called The Plot, which provides an overview of the whole Bible, and that teaching is presented in five albums, The Plot, The Tree, The Law of Moses, Miracles and the Supernatural, and The Last Days. So far, only The Plot and The Tree albums have been digitally re-mastered onto MP3 CDs, and the others are still on audiotape. But it is very worthwhile to listen to Bob's study, The Law of Moses on audiotape right now, and then BEL makes upgrade MP3 CDs available for only $5 each when each one becomes available. So, you can call 800 8-Enyart to order and listen to The Law of Moses on audiotape today. BEL offers a 90-day money-back guarantee if you don't like it, but if you love it (which we hope you do), and you want to share it with more people, then in the future, you can upgrade to the MP3 CD version for only $5 and give away one version or the other!

[Granite]

Question:

If scripture was silent on the subject of the unborn, would you as a Christian still oppose it? Or is what you consider biblical evidence against abortion necessary for you to maintain a pro-life position?

[csuguy]

Originally Posted by Granite

Question:

If scripture was silent on the subject of the unborn, would you as a Christian still oppose it? Or is what you consider biblical evidence against abortion necessary for you to maintain a pro-life position?

Murder is murder.

[Granite]

A straight answer, my kingdom for a straight answer...

I'll take it that's a "yes."

[Toast]

Yes Granite, I was pro life even before knowing about that verse.

[jeremiah]

After listening to this guest Reverend explain his postion, I am going to have to look up the word "Reverend", apparently, the word, it is not what I thought it was! I must have it mixed up with one, or more, of its antonyms!

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Toast

Yes Granite, I was pro life even before knowing about that verse.

Why, then, are Christians reluctant to make a case against abortion outside of their religion? This Fred fellow got me wondering: supposing the Bible is silent on the issue of abortion (and it is, incidently), would that necessarily change your mind about it, or not?

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by Granite

Why, then, are Christians reluctant to make a case against abortion outside of their religion? This Fred fellow got me wondering: supposing the Bible is silent on the issue of abortion (and it is, incidently), would that necessarily change your mind about it, or not?

thats a good question. ive asked that a few times myself. me personally i just think the baby could be given up to adoption for an infertile family or just a family who wants it period.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Granite

Why, then, are Christians reluctant to make a case against abortion outside of their religion? This Fred fellow got me wondering: supposing the Bible is silent on the issue of abortion (and it is, incidently), would that necessarily change your mind about it, or not?

For most Christians the bible does cover abortion when it covers murder. Abortion is just a specific case of murder so the fact that it may not explicitly mention the killing of an unborn child doesn't necessarily matter.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by kmoney

For most Christians the bible does cover abortion when it covers murder. Abortion is just a specific case of murder so the fact that it may not explicitly mention the killing of an unborn child doesn't necessarily matter.

Quite true but one must be a person in order for your death to be construed as "murder." The personhood of the unborn is something derived from scripture, correct? I've never encountered a pro-life Christian who used an argument outside the Bible to defend the personhood of the infant.

[Stripe]

There's something automatically evil about yanking a baby out of mum and chopping him to bits. I don't need any degrees in ancient languages to figure that one out.

How about you Grant? Why do you think murder is wrong?

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Granite

Quite true but one must be a person in order for your death to be construed as "murder." The personhood of the unborn is something derived from scripture, correct? I've never encountered a pro-life Christian who used an argument outside the Bible to defend the personhood of the infant.

I'd say that's correct.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by stipe

There's something automatically evil about yanking a baby out of mum and chopping him to bits. I don't need any degrees in ancient languages to figure that one out.

How about you Grant? Why do you think murder is wrong?

For much the same reason: although it's interesting that as a Christian you admit some things are "automatically evil," which would lead me to ask what exactly you need the Bible for. I've said here repeatedly that if you (in general, not in particular) need a book to tell you not to rape someone, for example, you probably need your head examined.

That, and a destruction of your own species strikes me as totally counter intuitive. One way or another the act of abortion is an act of tacit condemnation, as though the infant has been convicted of a crime. The lack of justice is clear, and the flippant, care free, crass disregard for life abortion breeds (pun intended) is absolutely depraved.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by kmoney

I'd say that's correct.

So...

Could you make a case for the personhood of the infant without scripture? A reasoned, secular argument, in other words.

I suppose my point's that the Bible--or any book, for that matter--is totally irrelevant and unnecessary when arguing against the destruction of the unborn.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Granite

For much the same reason: although it's interesting that as a Christian you admit some things are "automatically evil," which would lead me to ask what exactly you need the Bible for.

There's nothing wrong with an excess of good things.

Originally Posted by Granite

I've said here repeatedly that if you (in general, not in particular) need a book to tell you not to rape someone, for example, you probably need your head examined.

For some people that is not enough.

I've repeatedly responded to such assertions as yours that not committing such an act far outweighs any reasons why one might choose not to.

Originally Posted by Granite

That, and a destruction of your own species strikes me as totally counter intuitive. One way or another the act of abortion is an act of tacit condemnation, as though the infant has been convicted of a crime. The lack of justice is clear, and the flippant, care free, crass disregard for life abortion breeds (pun intended) is absolutely depraved.

I wonder then why you ask the question about scripture. Do you think we who read the bible are incapable of thinking as you do..?