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Greg said we need to go for judges who are conservatives. Actually, no. Exodus 18, we need judges who fear God, therefore, judges who will protect the innocent. Throughout the whole Old Testament God's people wouldn't trust and obey Him. They made alliances with the wicked, adulterers and murderers and God left them to their own destruction.
SUMMARY:
* TruthTalkLive.com: hosts a debate between KGOV.com's Bob Enyart and STR.org's Greg Koukl.
* Should Christians: support a pro-abortion presidential candidate?
Notes used in my debate with Greg Koukl against Giuliani -
October 28th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Hopefully, more Christians will see the immorality of campaigning for and supporting openly wicked and murderous leaders. For those interested, here are the notes I jotted down in the hour before our debate:
Christians should not support mass murderers like Rudi Giuliani (who as a governing official and candidate promotes child killing through public hospitals, tax funding, police enforcement, etc.).
Moral relativist Christians would oppose a candidate who was caught embezzling funds (not because it violates God’s command, Do not steal, but because it is politically-incorrect). And while they’d not support a Republican caught embezzling, they support Republican candidates who brag of their support for killing children.
The Gospels mention a pragmatic political party, the Herodians, the religious leaders who allied themselves with Herod Antipas, thinking that the Herodian dynasty was the lesser evil (than any alternative allegiance, with a choice between Herod or Christ, they would choose Herod), thinking the Herods were the best the Jewish worshippers could pragmatically expect in their hopes of attaining to their kingdom on Earth. (I have this understanding of the Herodians from my recollection of reading, way back in the 1970s, Alfred Edershiem’s Life & Times of Jesus the Messiah, a classic written in the 1800s.)
Like Rudi Giuliani, Herod was personally sexually immoral and murderous. Greg Koukl’s moral relativism would defend supporting Herod. But John the Baptist, instead of joining the Herodians, rebuked Herod, and for his courage, this wicked ruler beheaded the man whom Jesus described as the greatest born to women (Mat. 11:11). But how would Jesus describe Koukl? Greg’s moral relativism might have led him to campaign for Herod (as he does for Giuliani), and instead of persecution, Herod might have hired Koukl as an apologist for his murderous reign and his hopes for the continued support of Ceasar after Antipas built Tiberias (Koukl: yes, Herod murdered John the Baptist, but I would still campaign for him to rule).
Greg Koukl is imitating the pragmatic religious leaders, the Herodians.
Mat 22:16, 18 …the Herodians, [said], "Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth [lip service]… But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?” [also at Mark 12:13]
Mark 3:5-6 [Jesus saw] the hardness of their hearts, [and] the Herodians [plotted] against Him, how they might destroy Him.
"You shall not murder" (Rom. 13:9) "Do not kill the innocent" (Exodus 23:7)
Romans 3:8 mentions "do[ing] evil that good may come of it" (Romans 3:8), Paul considered it slander to be accused of something Christians now embrace, doing evil, that good may come of it.
"we must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29)
Giuliani is not only radically pro-abortion, but for years even supported the especially horrific partial-birth abortion. Giuliani is radically pro-homosexual, and would ban all handguns.
New York Daily News, March 8, 2004 Rudy Giuliani came out yesterday against President Bush's call for a ban on gay marriage. … "I certainly wouldn't support [a ban] at this time," added Giuliani, who lived with a gay Manhattan couple when he moved out of Gracie Mansion during his nasty divorce.
Secular humanists who support Giuliani: Sean Hannity, Hugh Hewitt, Michael Medved, etc.
Publicans: tax collectors, public building contractors, and military suppliers.
The New Testament condemns the publicans, so Christians now sell their souls for the Re-publicans.
The theme of much of the Old Testament, from the books of Moses, through Joshua & Judges, through the prophets, is that God’s people did not trust Him, nor obey Him, not with national politics, and instead made alliances with wicked leaders, and so God abandoned them to their own destruction.
-Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church & KGOV.com
The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com. You can call weekdays at 5 pm E.T. at 1-800-8Enyart. And you can get BR VIIDoes God Exist?, and BR XThe Open Theism Debate in manuscript form!
This was possibly one of the most painful radio listening moments I have heard in my life. Listening to Bob and Greg debate over political decision making made me feel like a child hiding in his room as his parents are arguing fiercely over a serious issue. I respect both Bob and Greg greatly and turn to their radio archives and written materials for answers on the big questions that my small mind cant handle.
Bob I side with you more on this one than Greg, but I disagree with your performance in this radio debate. There was a clear disagreement regarding the definition of "Legal Positivism" and "Relativism" in the middle of the discussion and I acknowledge you for not letting those points steer the focus of the debate away. But I found you cut Greg off from making his points from time to time to the point where it was a bit rude. I believe had you given him the opportunity to speak without cutting him off, more credibility would have been established with the audience.
Just to be clear, I'm with you on this 100%. My Vote goes for Alan Keyes (who sadly cant get 5000 Americans to sign his pledge). I will not do evil with some foolish hope that good may come of it.
-Grutch
"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" - Psalms 144:1
I think Grutch is right, and saying "Rudy 'murder from afar' Gulianni" instead of "mass murderer would have been a more effective tack. People would have understood the sarcasm.
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