[Granite]

No kidding. "Crazy homicidal basketcase" is all this sad story boils down to. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Sharri]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

What does? It seems like the finger-pointing is going in all directions instead of just acknowledging that he was disturbed and unstable. It wasn't church, it wasn't music, it wasn't homosexuality- he was nuts.

You need to get your facts right, I never said Church had anything to do with why this kid did what he did, I was responding to someone else.

Yes, let's acknowledge this kid was angry, not nuts.

[Real Sorceror]

Originally Posted by Shimei

He was a man who sought after all things evil, homosexuality being one of those things...

Looks to me like he was a crybaby and a drama-queen

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Real Sorceror

Looks to me like he was a crybaby and a drama-queen

Same here. He was a confused mess who went DEFCON-1. Who cares which way he swung?

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by Sharri

You need to get your facts right, I never said Church had anything to do with why this kid did what he did, I was responding to someone else.

The church bit wasn't directed at you, but a general comment. My point was that there are attempts to blame everything but the kid himself it seems.

Yes, let's acknowledge this kid was angry, not nuts.

He was angry, but he was crazy too. I get angry. I don't shoot people. It takes something more to make a shooter.

[drbrumley]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

The church bit wasn't directed at you, but a general comment. My point was that there are attempts to blame everything but the kid himself it seems.

He was angry, but he was crazy too. I get angry. I don't shoot people. It takes something more to make a shooter.

Psychotropic drugs?

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by drbrumley

Psychotropic drugs?

Drugs are usually an indication that someone has problems but to lay the blame on them is, to say the least, premature. Did the drugs cause the massacre or prevent it from happening earlier or in an even worse way?

[drbrumley]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

Drugs are usually an indication that someone has problems but to lay the blame on them is, to say the least, premature.

In this case I agree, it would be premature.

Did the drugs cause the massacre or prevent it from happening earlier or in an even worse way?

Well, it is known that Clebold and some others who also did such acts were on these crazy drugs. It doesn't diminish what they did. But something sets them off now, compared to back in the day, this kind of thing was unheard of.

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by drbrumley

Well, it is known that Clebold and some others who also did such acts were on these crazy drugs. It doesn't diminish what they did. But something sets them off now, compared to back in the day, this kind of thing was unheard of.

Something indeed. What that something is, though- that's the million dollar question. Do you think these people would have been better off without medical treatment?

[Traditio]

Knight, check your pms, man.

[Knight]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

Drugs are usually an indication that someone has problems but to lay the blame on them is, to say the least, premature. Did the drugs cause the massacre or prevent it from happening earlier or in an even worse way?

I don't lay the blame on anyone or anything but the shooter. Yet at the same time I do think that bad influences can lead people down wrong paths. I think we would be fooling ourselves not to recognize that our society is helping to push some folks over the edge.

- We no longer believe in right and wrong
- We are told that we are no different than animals
- We are told that when we die there are no eternal consequences
- We are taught that the strong survive and become stronger
- We are told that drugs are the only answer to mental problems
- We are taught that we should tolerate EVERYTHING (except Christians)

The church isn't innocent either.

- The church says God creates evil as well as good
- The church says EVERYTHING is part of God's plan
- The church says we shouldn't judge
- The church says all sins are equal
- The church says we should hate the sin but love the sinner

All of these errors can confuse the already confused and leave them feeling that nobody has the answer, that there really is no hope, no right and no wrong. It's these errors (and others) that can push an already lost person over the edge and help them to commit unspeakable acts of evil.

Therefore, while its ultimately the responsibility of the individual who commits the crime other factors can and do lead these tragedies.

[drbrumley]

Originally Posted by Knight

I don't lay the blame on anyone or anything but the shooter. Yet at the same time I do think that bad influences can lead people down wrong paths. I think we would be fooling ourselves not to recognize that our society is helping to push some folks over the edge.

- We no longer believe in right and wrong
- We are told that we are no different than animals
- We are told that when we die there are no eternal consequences
- We are taught that the strong survive and become stronger
- We are told that drugs are the only answer to mental problems
- We are taught that we should tolerate EVERYTHING (except Christians)

The church isn't innocent either.

- The church says God creates evil as well as good
- The church says EVERYTHING is part of God's plan
- The church says we shouldn't judge
- The church says all sins are equal
- The church says we should hate the sin but love the sinner

All of these errors can confuse the already confused and leave them feeling that nobody has the answer, that there really is no hope, no right and no wrong. It's these errors (and others) that can push an already lost person over the edge and help them to commit unspeakable acts of evil.

Therefore, while its ultimately the responsibility of the individual who commits the crime other factors can and do lead these tragedies.

Alot of truth to that

[drbrumley]

According to a statement from the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons, or AAPS, the numbers from California show that reported autism rates hit a high of 800 in May 2003. If that trend had continued, the reports would have risen to more than 1,000 by the beginning of 2006. But the number actually went down to 620, a real decrease of 22 percent, and a decrease from the projection of 35 percent.

Stated the AAPS: "This analysis directly contradicts 2004 recommendations of the Institute of Medicine, which examined vaccine safety data from the National Immunization Program of the CDC. While not willing to either rule out or to corroborate a relationship between mercury and autism, the IOM soft-pedaled its findings and decided no more studies were needed."

As more and more vaccines were added to the mandatory schedule of vaccines for children, the dose of the mercury-based preservative thimerosal rose, so that the cumulative dose injected into babies exceeded the toxic threshold set by many government agencies, the physicians' group explained.

Up until about 1989, pre-school children got only three vaccines – polio, DPT and MMR. By 1999, the CDC recommended a total of 22 vaccines to be given before children reach the first grade, including Hepatitis B, which is given to newborns within the first 24 hours of birth. Many of these vaccines contained mercury. In the 1990s, approximately 40 million children were injected with mercury-containing vaccines.

The rate of autism skyrocketed between 1989 and 2003. Currently, there are more than a half million children in the U.S. who have autism.

In 1999, on the recommendation of the American Academy of Pediatrics and U.S. Public Health Service, thimerosal was removed from most childhood vaccines as a "precautionary" measure. There was no admission of any causal link between thimerosal and autism.

The authors of the new report, David A. Geier, B.A. and Mark R. Geier, M.D., Ph.D., believe consumers should still be concerned about mercury, as it is still added to some of the most commonly used vaccines, such as those for flu.

States the report: "Despite its removal from many childhood vaccines, thimerosal is still routinely added to some formulations of influenza vaccine administered to U.S. infants, as well as to several other vaccines (e.g. tetanus-diphtheria and monovalent tetanus) administered to older children and adults. In 2004, the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences retreated from the stated 1999 goal of the AAP and the PHS to remove thimerosal from U.S. vaccines as soon as possible. … As a result, assessing the safety of [thimerosal-containing vaccines] is a matter of significant importance."

[Sharri]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

The church bit wasn't directed at you, but a general comment. My point was that there are attempts to blame everything but the kid himself it seems.

He was angry, but he was crazy too. I get angry. I don't shoot people. It takes something more to make a shooter.

I'm sure we will hear more about this kid, no doubt the kid is to blame, he was selfish for doing what he did.

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by Knight

I don't lay the blame on anyone or anything but the shooter. Yet at the same time I do think that bad influences can lead people down wrong paths. I think we would be fooling ourselves not to recognize that our society is helping to push some folks over the edge.

- We no longer believe in right and wrong

Who's we? I know that I do and so does everyone I come into contact with. We might think these aren't as cut and dried as some would like, but that's something else.

- We are told that we are no different than animals

No, we are told that we evolved from animals. That we can be told about that, and understand it, is proof enough that we are different in at least some important ways.

- We are told that when we die there are no eternal consequences

Who teaches that?

- We are taught that the strong survive and become stronger

The world teaches that. We humans try to do a little better than that.

- We are told that drugs are the only answer to mental problems

Once again, who has ever said that? Drugs can be a big help in some cases, but the ONLY answer?

- We are taught that we should tolerate EVERYTHING (except Christians)

No, we are taught to tolerate people's beliefs and actions so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others. Christianity, in one form or another, is the dominant faith in this nation. Hardly intolerance, I'd say.

The church isn't innocent either.

- The church says God creates evil as well as good
- The church says EVERYTHING is part of God's plan
- The church says we shouldn't judge
- The church says all sins are equal
- The church says we should hate the sin but love the sinner

The church's part in this is not my area of expertise so I'll let these stand.

All of these errors can confuse the already confused and leave them feeling that nobody has the answer, that there really is no hope, no right and no wrong.

Only if they consistently look for pre-chewed answers outside of themselves.

It's these errors (and others) that can push an already lost person over the edge and help them to commit unspeakable acts of evil.

Or the fact that they've lost their minds.

Therefore, while its ultimately the responsibility of the individual who commits the crime other factors can and do lead these tragedies.

The certainly have an influence- but how much responsibility are you willing to take off of the shoulders of those who are actually going out and doing these things?