Except a big part of my study at the theological college was christianity, and I was an evangelist as a child so I got to know the history and the theology behind christianity.
And for all of that, you never got to know the PERSON behind Christianity. That is why you fail. You think Christianity is a history, something to be studied. Christianity is a relationship with God and a choice to live that love.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
And for all of that, you never got to know the PERSON behind Christianity. That is why you fail. You think Christianity is a history, something to be studied. Christianity is a relationship with God and a choice to live that love.
It is a subject worthy of study. If you don't, you're just being willfully ignorant. There's a lot more to it than "Love Jesus" and "the Bible tells me so."
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
It is a subject worthy of study. If you don't, you're just being willfully ignorant. There's a lot more to it than "Love Jesus" and "the Bible tells me so."
Depends on what "it" you are referring to. If it is the history of Christianity then there is a lot to be studied. A large amount of it can be very disturbing. People do terrible things in the name of God, things God never intended and will not condone. On the other hand, if it refers to the Christian lifestyle then you need to have a relationship with Christ and the life you live will reflect the love shared in that relationship. However, you need know nothing of Christian history to be Christian. The converse holds true as well. You can know everything there is to know about Christian history and not be a Christian.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Please read the next sentence in my post from which you took this.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Please read the next sentence in my post from which you took this.
I did, but that does not explain how you found out God was real in the first place, or how you learned about the doctrines of Christianity. I think the history is pretty important for understanding those things.
I did, but that does not explain how you found out God was real in the first place, or how you learned about the doctrines of Christianity. I think the history is pretty important for understanding those things.
I didn't find Christ, God found me and placed me in His sons hands. The history o the Christian church is not important to Christian doctrine. It is frequently full of gross violations of Christian doctrines. The Inquisition leaps to mind. The Bible contains the doctrines that are important to those who love and follow Jesus. When we begin to substitute traditions of history for solid doctrine we get is serious trouble seriously fast.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Depends on what "it" you are referring to. If it is the history of Christianity then there is a lot to be studied. A large amount of it can be very disturbing. People do terrible things in the name of God, things God never intended and will not condone. On the other hand, if it refers to the Christian lifestyle then you need to have a relationship with Christ and the life you live will reflect the love shared in that relationship. However, you need know nothing of Christian history to be Christian. The converse holds true as well. You can know everything there is to know about Christian history and not be a Christian.
Is there one set definition of "the Christian lifestyle"? Is the "lifestyle" of a Christian in Sudan the same as one in South Dakota? Who defines this "lifestyle"? The second you can get Christians the world over to agree on this--or anything else, for that matter--please let me know.
If you choose to embrace Christianity while remaining ignorant of its history, I submit you are making a enormously poorly-informed mistake. Frankly that's true of any organization or group. Only a fool would change his or her life while deliberately remaining in the dark of a group's particulars.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
See, it's funny that you say that, because Judaism, the religion where the mythology of Christianity springs from, does not have a hellfire and brimstone tradition. The Idea of Eternal Flames comes from Dante Alighieri's work The Divine Comedy. It became popular after the enlightenment years, and the poetic work of fiction (great read by the way) seeped into christian mythology.
Judaism, and therefore Christianity, has a tradition of Sheol, which is a place of spiritual cleansing.
Regardless, I don't believe in your mythology and therefore do not believe I will burn in a hell of Dantes devising.
Your concept of the afterlife comes from a work of fiction?
You're right. You would have gotten along well with Hubbard.
And this jibes with your belief that knowledge = power?
Do you appy that attitude to other areas of life? For example, the rules you follow when driving a car... Do you base that on fiction, as well? For me, red is a passionate color, while green reminds me of nature, so it is soothing... So, when I see red, I want to go, and when I see green, I want to stop and relax.
This attitude works great in life, don't you think? Maybe I'll apply this principle to how I handle my taxes, too!
The Bible has no book of 1 & 2 Presidents, or 1 & 2 Legislators (the latter of which are specifically entrusted to continually change the law, something the Lord repeatedly rebukes Israel for doing).
Scripture does, however, have a book of Judges, and a book of 1 & 2 Kings. These are the rightful, divinely-ordained rulers of any just society under the principles of biblical theonomy.
Is there one set definition of "the Christian lifestyle"? Is the "lifestyle" of a Christian in Sudan the same as one in South Dakota? Who defines this "lifestyle"? The second you can get Christians the world over to agree on this--or anything else, for that matter--please let me know.
The Christian lifestyle the world over should be evident by the fruits of the Spirit evident in the believers life. That attitude would exist independent of the country or culture the believer lives in. The Christian lifestyle is a life of service to your fellow man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite
If you choose to embrace Christianity while remaining ignorant of its history, I submit you are making a enormously poorly-informed mistake. Frankly that's true of any organization or group. Only a fool would change his or her life while deliberately remaining in the dark of a group's particulars.
The groups particulars exist independent of the history of Christianity. It is fine to know its history but one must be very careful to understand that history. That people tortured Jews in Spain in the name of Jesus does not make it a Christian doctrine or even right. History must be compared against the teachings of Christ to determine if what was done was correct. In the case of the inquisition, there is no teaching from Jesus or His apostles that requires we torture people until they believe. The inquisition was wrong and it was not a Christian act even though the framers of the inquisition claim to have been doing Gods work. History does not exist in a vacuum. It must be studied in context and, in the case of Christian history, it must be compared to the teachings of Christ to determine whether is truly representative of the Christian life or not.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The Christian lifestyle the world over should be evident by the fruits of the Spirit evident in the believers life. That attitude would exist independent of the country or culture the believer lives in. The Christian lifestyle is a life of service to your fellow man.
The groups particulars exist independent of the history of Christianity. It is fine to know its history but one must be very careful to understand that history. That people tortured Jews in Spain in the name of Jesus does not make it a Christian doctrine or even right. History must be compared against the teachings of Christ to determine if what was done was correct. In the case of the inquisition, there is no teaching from Jesus or His apostles that requires we torture people until they believe. The inquisition was wrong and it was not a Christian act even though the framers of the inquisition claim to have been doing Gods work. History does not exist in a vacuum. It must be studied in context and, in the case of Christian history, it must be compared to the teachings of Christ to determine whether is truly representative of the Christian life or not.
It should be, I agree. But I don't believe this life of service you just described is self-evident at all. You're describing a lovely humanistic ideal that is contrary to reality.
The particulars are part of the history. Unless you want to send inconvenient facts down a memory hole, you must accept these abuses--and many others--as part of your faith's history. Warts and all, as the saying goes. Telling someone to "just believe in Jesus" does them a grotesque, intensely dishonest disservice.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
It should be, I agree. But I don't believe this life of service you just described is self-evident at all. You're describing a lovely humanistic ideal that is contrary to reality.
Sadly, this is a true statement. We Christians should be servants to those around us, but we rarely are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite
The particulars are part of the history. Unless you want to send inconvenient facts down a memory hole, you must accept these abuses--and many others--as part of your faith's history. Warts and all, as the saying goes. Telling someone to "just believe in Jesus" does them a grotesque, intensely dishonest disservice.
Just believe in Jesus does them the best service possible. I don't want people to look at Christian history and conclude good Christians invade Jerusalem and torture non-believers. That is most assuredly not Christian. On the other hand, if you believe in Jesus and spend your time getting to know Him through the Bible then maybe, just maybe, the future of Christianity will be far more Christlike than its history.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Slogan/motto:
I am Shai Gar, therefore I am Shai Gar. Let do as thou wilt be the whole of the law.
Reputation:
January 6th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
And for all of that, you never got to know the PERSON behind Christianity. That is why you fail. You think Christianity is a history, something to be studied. Christianity is a relationship with God and a choice to live that love.
Please point to the place where I said that. It is impossible to make a study of Christianity the religion and not put a study of the person "Jesus The Anointed One" (because that's what "christ" means, Interesting to note David was also anointed by a prophet of god, I wonder if they called him Christ David in those days... shall have to look into it). I have read the gospels which spell out his life and he seems to be a truly admirable man. However I do not see him as anything other than a man worthy of respect. He certainly said he was the Son of Man often enough, and said that we were all children of god. I don't once recall him ever referring to himself as Incarnate God. Hell, come to that I don't once ever recall God itself ever referring to itself as god. Gods explaination of itself when asked "Are you adonai(lord)?" was "I shall be as I shall be", a very open ended statement if ever there was one.
In summation I respect Jesus as a moral, principled pacifist, in the same way that I respect Guatma, or Mohandas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
Depends on what "it" you are referring to. If it is the history of Christianity then there is a lot to be studied. A large amount of it can be very disturbing. People do terrible things in the name of God, things God never intended and will not condone. On the other hand, if it refers to the Christian lifestyle then you need to have a relationship with Christ and the life you live will reflect the love shared in that relationship. However, you need know nothing of Christian history to be Christian. The converse holds true as well. You can know everything there is to know about Christian history and not be a Christian.
I'm unsure what, specifically, Granite is referring to, however I refer to the mythologies and the histories, and the law of the Jews. Because That's what Jesus was, a Rabbi of Judaism. If you look at Matthew 5:17-20, he says fairly straight forward that the jewish law is still in place, and the only places where he refutes a single line of it was when he said that you may work on the sabbath and still retain its holiness, and where he stopped people from stoning a woman to death for the crime of adultery. In the latter example he didn't refute the law, but rebuked the people who were going to kill her by asking them if they had sin in their past or life.
The history of the people who claim to follow christianity really doesn't matter. What matters is the dogma set in place before Jesus, and ratified by him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
I didn't find Christ, God found me and placed me in His sons hands.
So God physically picked you up, took you up to heaven (where most scholars believe jesus is), and placed you in gods hands? Metaphors are all very well, but if you're attempting to describe a metaphor, it's best to use solid statements instead of obscuring the issue further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
The history of the Christian church is not important to Christian doctrine. It is frequently full of gross violations of Christian doctrines. The Inquisition leaps to mind. The Bible contains the doctrines that are important to those who love and follow Jesus. When we begin to substitute traditions of history for solid doctrine we get is serious trouble seriously fast.
Oh, I agree completely with you in this instance. Perhaps however you need to make a much more indepth study of the religion you claim to follow however if you want to follow christs law instead of what modern priests teach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Graphite
Your concept of the afterlife comes from a work of fiction?
See, this is a classic example of taking a persons words and meaning completely out of context. In that post I was refuting the idea of the classic Fire and Brimstone hell that seemed to be preaching. The Fire and Brimstone hell is very much a zoroastrian belief that was reinstated by a poem by Dante. Sheol is the christian/Jewish hell, and it's a limbo where the soul is purified out of the presense of God in order to enter its presense. I can well imagine that according to Jews the idea of being out of the heaven and love of god would have a timeless and torturous feel to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Graphite
You're right. You would have gotten along well with Hubbard.
Yup. But not because of your understanding of the two of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Graphite
Do you appy that attitude to other areas of life? For example, the rules you follow when driving a car... Do you base that on fiction, as well? For me, red is a passionate color, while green reminds me of nature, so it is soothing... So, when I see red, I want to go, and when I see green, I want to stop and relax.
This attitude works great in life, don't you think? Maybe I'll apply this principle to how I handle my taxes, too!
Ohh, hey, look you go right ahead with that. Maybe you'll see where you're wrong, perhaps in prison, or the afterlife you believe in you'll learn the difference between metaphor and reality.
Granite is an igneous rock that is extremely hard to break down. However even if it is then intense heat can melt it down and reforge it into the rock it once was.
Graphite is brittle and easy to crush between the fingers and as a powder can be used to speed you on your way. Graphite doesn't reform as easily as granite.
I think I can see where you get your names from
January 6th, 2009, 01:15 PM
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