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bucksplasher · **What is truth? -** May 13th, 2009, 03:00 PM

Can something especially as broad as a religion be partly true?

I believe that we Catholics have the most truth available in this present age, but I'm ready to admit that others can be partially correct.

Is that possible in the Protestant world?

tWINs

vqro00 · May 13th, 2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryContrary

Do you think you and I disagree on this? Are these children saved through Christ or not? So what's your point then? Do you even know what Barbarian is arguing for?

In fact, I'm not even sure he knows what he's arguing for. So if you want to take sides here I'd recommend a bit more care.

My point is that if *you* believe that babies are saved in spite of not having a personal relationship with Jesus you contradict your own belief in two things:
a) Every doctrine is found in the bible
b) People cannot go to heaven unless they have a personal relationship with Jesus

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:23 PM

[quote=The Barbarian;2037872
The Bible is the word of God, but it was compiled by men, using tradition, scholarship, and inspiration. The Bible cannot be more reliable than the means by which it was compiled.[/QUOTE]

This would eliminate LDS, Muhammadans, Arians, Pelagians, Luther, Calvin, etc., etc...

But, as the saying goes, Don't confuse them with the facts.

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion

Bottom line: any attempt to cater to, or curry favor of, heresies should be loudly denounced by the faithful.

AMR

And just who gets to say who all these groups are? These groups all say they are the faithful, and all others are not.

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john w

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Scripture refutes your opinion. That is you talking, as you very rarely quote scripture-Judges 21:25.

"People compiled the Bible you have elevated to the level of God. They did so, using tradition, scholarship, and inspiration. The Bible can be no more authoritative than the means by which it was compiled. "-The Barbarian

Scripture says otherwise, as I quoted from scripture. What the Holy Bible says, the LORD God says. Thanks for your opinion, Oprah.

"Wrong. It says that there is no other source of authority. And the Bible shows that is wrong. Jesus says so, for example:

[b]John 16:13-15..."-The Barbarian

Of course, you failure to rightly divide this word of truth leads you to this opinion.

"Even Luther, who invented Sola Scriptura, denounced books of the Bible as not valid. He argued to remove the book of James, for example, pointing out that it denied his new doctrine of Sola fide."-The Barbarian

It is irrelevant what any sinner says about the Holy Bible, whether it be Luther, "the pope"........What saith the scripture, about itself? I showed you. You reject it. Again, the contrast between Roman Catholicism, and Christianity.

"For Christians, it's God. Apparently, you've made the Bible your God..."-The Barbarian

Slower. And just how were you able to come to know "God", to know "Jesus", without the scriptures revealing Him to you?(rhetorical q). Did God come to you in a dream?You would have no knowledge of the LORD God, to know "Jesus", apart from/without His word, and this word must be w/o error to have any credibility. This is scriptures testimony(which are not quoted in your "argument"/defense), which contradicts your "opinion.".

Which "Jesus"? You are missing the point because you assume, "believe", that it is not relevant to discuss the issue of the purity of the Holy Bible, and its authority. Maybe I am just "unlearned and ignorant"(Acts 4:13), but it seems to me that when discussing the Lord Jesus Christ, we need to make sure we are discussing the Jesus Christ of "the Bible", and not "another Jesus"(2 Cor. 11:4) and the only way to discuss the Jesus Christ of "the Bible" is to make sure we know we are speaking from the "pure word" This is not too hard to grasp(The Pharisees nullified the word of God by their tradition-this was the issue, not "small stuff").

That is, you cannot separate the Living word from the written word-the LORD God does not. How do we come to know the Lord Jesus Christ? Did He come to us in a vision or a dream, or did we read about Him? Did He speak to us in an audible voice, or just telepathically communicate with us? No! We can only know Him through the written word! And that is the issue! If I were to say to you that "the Bible", the New World Translation, says: "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was a god", what would you say to this? This denies the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and is in error-I can say that this New World Translation is corrupt.

I "...know not any..."(Is. 44:8) God apart from the God that is revealed in the Holy Bible, and in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Know this-to those who "argue" something along the lines of "my authority is Jesus...my mandate is Jesus.....", I say, .

"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor. 14:38

The word ignorant is a good biblical word-Paul uses it over and over again. It is not used by the Holy Spirit in a derogatory sense of "stupid"-it merely means "lack of knowledge."

Your "argument is similar to those who say "only God is infallible, not the book/any book...God/the Lord Jesus Christ is my authority, not the book/any book....I trust God/the Lord Jesus Christ, not the book/any book........"

Again, I say, what God, what "Christ", what "Jesus"? We have no knowledge of God, of His Christ, without that vehicle by which He has mandated to reveal Himself-a book. The Jews have a "god", and a "Christ"/"Messiah", as revealed in a book-the OT; the Roman Catholics have a "Jesus", as revealed in a book, the Holy Bible and tradition, and thus worship "another Jesus"; Islam has a "Jesus", as revealed in a book, the Koran; Mormons have a "god", as revealed in a book, the Holy Bible, and the BOM.........Does that make these representations true? Biblical Christianity rests on the premise that the Holy Bible alone is the source of truth, and biblical infallibility as the only rational, reasonable(Is. 1:18) defensible position. Without biblical inerrancy, this is "pulling the rug from under " objective truth, and man, not God, becomes the reference point for truth.Without such, it is an exercise in subjectivism(Judges 21:25), relativism, and mysticism-a sophisticated form of idolatry, where man "invents" a "god", a "Christ", a "Jesus", of his own choosing/imagination..

When we speak of the "word", we can never separate the Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the written word, the Scriptures of truth. The biblical testimony is that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is only obtained from faith in the Holy Bible that reveals Him. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be divorced/separated from faith/trust in the scriptures that reveals Him, i.e., who He is and His work. The Lord Jesus Christ, the Living Word, reveals the invisible God(Jn. 1:18). It is not that we have to explain Christ, but that His mission is to explain God to us. He interprets the Father, and we are to believe Him. Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ is called "The word of God" because He makes known, reveals, and explains the Father. And this is why the Scriptures are called "the word of God", because they make known the Father and the Son, by the Holy Spirit, the author of the word.

The Lord Jesus Christ is "the Way" to the Father(Jn. 14). He makes known God to us in all His attributes, will, and words, "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me", "I have given them thy word","Thy word is truth"(Jn. 17:8,14,17)-it is always "THY word".

In like manner, the written word, the Scripture, is given in order to interpret, and to testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this is why the Lord Jesus Christ is the one great subject of the word.

This is why the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of both. The Holy Spirit's mission is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ(Jn. 16:14). He receives and shows the things of Christ. But He shows them in the written word(1 Cor. 2:9-14). And this is why it must be He and He alone who enables us to "preach the word"(2 Tim. 4:2).

Thus, we have the Word in 3 manifestations:
The Incarnate Word
The written word
The preached word

There is no other. The Lord Jesus Christ reveals the Father. The Scripture reveals the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals both in the written and preached word(1 Cor . 12:7,8).

I suggest you "check out scriptures"(Acts 17:11), and quote the scriptures, as the LORD God, Jesus Christ "mandates" you do(notice the number of times He quotes scripture, "It is written....the scripture saith......" over and over and over and.....), believe the biblical testimony, and not rely on your opinion(Judges 21:25). Then, and only then, will you not be venturing into these rings as one who "beateth the air."

My priority is the same priority the LORD God testifies to in His written word that it should be, what the Lord Jesus Christ testifies it should be, as I outline from the scripture, not my "opinion", such as yours. Your mandate is formed from your "opinion", what you "think" it should be(Judges 21:25).

Lewis Caroll's "Alice in Wonderland".
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means what I choose it to mean-neither more nor less".

"The question is", said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the MASTER...that's all....When I make a word do a lot of work...I always pay it extra."

The Queen, to Alice: "The word means what I say it means."

"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob." Is. 41:21

As always, As it is written,
In Christ,

John W

Are you even trying to make a point in 100 words or less? Perhaps a course in a local community college could help you get to it in a more concise manner?

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:36 PM

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaulToPaul

Read Matthew 10:23 (KJV) until you have it memorized.

Does your rendition of this verse mean that:
the apostles failed in their mission, and that Jesus knew they would?

So, the point of the Great Commission after the resurrection: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every nation baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost... " was Jesus commanding the impossible? Or what? He knew they wouldn't or couldn't but He commanded it anyway, so to show them - what? It makes no sense, your rendition of this verse that is.

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

Have you noticed that what the pope does is more important than what he says?

That's right. Jesus said: If you do not believe My words, believe the works that I do."

Sheila B · May 14th, 2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucksplasher

Can something especially as broad as a religion be partly true?

I believe that we Catholics have the most truth available in this present age, but I'm ready to admit that others can be partially correct.

Is that possible in the Protestant world?

tWINs

From my years as a protestant, I would venture: that we each recognized that we each had some of the truth, and we were in constant flux as to how much truth there was to be known in each respective camp.

At the end of the day, we all agreed more or less that all the truth could not be known, since somehow the catholic church had screwed up, and no one had stepped in to fill her shoes, so God had allowed us to wallow in our confusion and that was his will for us until His second coming. I never heard any protestant church even come close to saying they were now The Church. The general belief was that: we are each trying the best we can and nothing better can be known.

Depressing and exasperating and anti-biblical, but there you have it.

john w · 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheila B

Are you even trying to make a point in 100 words or less? Perhaps a course in a local community college could help you get to it in a more concise manner?

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Like the catechism, encyclicals and other papal documents, Council of Trent decrees........................................... ..............................

Right.

Sheila B · May 19th, 2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john w

__
Like the catechism, encyclicals and other papal documents, Council of Trent degrees........................................... ..............................

Right.

giggle. Touche my friend.

Frank Ernest · May 20th, 2009, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqro00

My point is that if *you* believe that babies are saved in spite of not having a personal relationship with Jesus you contradict your own belief in two things:
a) Every doctrine is found in the bible
b) People cannot go to heaven unless they have a personal relationship with Jesus

Mark 9:38-40 (KJV)

john w · May 20th, 2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ernest

Mark 9:38-40 (KJV)

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Mat. 16:20 in The Holy Bible

bybee · **I wonder.....? -** May 20th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqro00

My point is that if *you* believe that babies are saved in spite of not having a personal relationship with Jesus you contradict your own belief in two things:
a) Every doctrine is found in the bible
b) People cannot go to heaven unless they have a personal relationship with Jesus

Why, do you suppose, that Jesus said "...unless ye become like little children....?". What kind of God would condemn little babies to hell? bybee