[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Adambassador

When you first asked to be on the list, I sent your address to Rudy so he could add you to the list. I just emailed him to make sure you're on it.

Perhaps it went in your junk mail folder?

That is possible. What should I be looking for in the address line?

Also, have him send me something else so I can make sure it doesn't go to my junk mail again.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

It isn't generally a matter that would lead to the loss of our own lives. Even if we entered the abortion mill and stood in the way. Of course, getting that far isn't easy. We would lose our freedom before we got that far.

But we wouldn't be saving any lives through that.

So, the bottom line is, you can't give up your life or freedom to save a life if no life is saved.

Not if you showed up in superior numbers and took the place by force. Honestly, if you truly value the life of a fetus on equal ground as the life of a person born, then you need to be willing to risk it all to defend it.

I'd break the law if necessary to save a life. Why aren't you kidnapping pregnant women when they try to walk in? Why aren't you breaking into an abortion doctors' houses and chopping off their hands?

Is it because deep in your subconscious you may actually realize the truth? That the life of a fetus is worth less than your own?

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

Not if you showed up in superior numbers and took the place by force. Honestly, if you truly value the life of a fetus on equal ground as the life of a person born, then you need to be willing to risk it all to defend it.

I'd break the law if necessary to save a life. Why aren't you kidnapping pregnant women when they try to walk in? Why aren't you breaking into an abortion doctors' houses and chopping off their hands?

Is it because deep in your subconscious you may actually realize the truth? That the life of a fetus is worth less than your own?

First off, there is no guarantee that every single one of these actions would save a life. Then there is the fact that one should never do evil that good may come about. It only defeats the purpose.

Also, the end cannot justify the means if the means would most likely result in an end the complete opposite of the one desired.

The goal is not to occasionally save a single life, though we are grateful for those individual victories. The goal is to end abortion as a legal practice. These actions you have proscribed would most likely have the opposite effect, strengthening our opposition.

Not to mention a change of heart and mind on the issue is more preferable than forceful actions for both sides. To do things by force should be a last resort.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by chatmaggot

Are you serious?

Yes

You make a blanket statement about how picketing never changed anyones hearts and I pointed out that those who are on the front lines of the battle (Jo Scott) would disagree because of their experiences that contradict what you say. You then ask me to take a poll on TOL? Why limit it to TOL? Why not poll the entire world? Because you know in doing so, you will be shown to be in error.

No, I would not be shown in error. Picketing might changed the mind of a few or delay an abortion for a few days, however, it is the intimidation behind the act that causes this reaction. A change of heart, not intimidation, is what the goal should be if pro lifers want to make a lasting impact.

Just because I am against abortion does not mean I am pro-intimidation.

I want women to know that just because some supposedly morally superior types will try to shame them regarding their pregnancy that those are the types to be disregarded.

I want women to know that just because their significant other, friend or parent may suggest or demand they abort, they are suggesting it for selfish reasons.

There is a huge difference in my tactics as compared to yours. You prefer demanding and judging. My preference is to support and encourage the mothers both during and AFTER giving birth.

There should be EQUAL focus on the unborn baby and the mother. Pro-choicers only focus on themselves most of the time and a good portion of pro-lifers only focus on the unborn child. Believing that there are TWO lives involved means supporting and treating them both respectfully. Intimidation methods are not supportive or respectful and in the long run, do NOT work.

[chatmaggot]

Originally Posted by Rusha

No, I would not be shown in error. Picketing might changed the mind of a few or delay an abortion for a few days, however, it is the intimidation behind the act that causes this reaction. A change of heart, not intimidation, is what the goal should be if pro lifers want to make a lasting impact.

Have you ever listened to any of Bob's broadcasts where he interviews Jo Scott or mentions an update of their efforts.

They change minds, hearts, and lives by their actions.

I am glad to see that you now agree that minds might be changed as a result of picketers.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by chatmaggot

Have you ever listened to any of Bob's broadcasts where he interviews Jo Scott or mentions an update of their efforts.

They change minds, hearts, and lives by their actions.

I am glad to see that you now agree that minds might be changed as a result of picketers.

I didn't say I agreed with the method, but rather that it might change the mind of a few women.

The goal should be to change the attitude of women and men so that childbearing and parenting is something that is not seen as a burden or embarrassment, but rather for the gift that it is.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Rusha

I didn't say I agreed with the method, but rather that it might change the mind of a few women.

So .. you agree it works, but you do not agree with it.

The goal should be to change the attitude of women and men so that childbearing and parenting is something that is not seen as a burden or embarrassment, but rather for the gift that it is.

That's exactly the turnarounds that have been described!

[Granite]

Originally Posted by chatmaggot

Have you ever listened to any of Bob's broadcasts where he interviews Jo Scott or mentions an update of their efforts.

They change minds, hearts, and lives by their actions.

I am glad to see that you now agree that minds might be changed as a result of picketers.

Intimidation and coercion may be outstanding short term solutions but do not change anything for the better in the long term.

Invading a neighborhood to get yourself noticed is self-serving and does not accomplish much.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by Stripe

So .. you agree it works, but you do not agree with it.

I agree it works as well as any other *quick fix* method of intimidation. You may very well cause a few women to leave because they don't want to be confronted, however, the goal is that they see reason and value in the unborn. IF they do not change their view to valuing the unborn and wanting to protect their child thereby leaving because they are intimidated, why would you believe they just won't go elsewhere?

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

First off, there is no guarantee that every single one of these actions would save a life. Then there is the fact that one should never do evil that good may come about. It only defeats the purpose.

Also, the end cannot justify the means if the means would most likely result in an end the complete opposite of the one desired.

The goal is not to occasionally save a single life, though we are grateful for those individual victories. The goal is to end abortion as a legal practice. These actions you have proscribed would most likely have the opposite effect, strengthening our opposition.

Not to mention a change of heart and mind on the issue is more preferable than forceful actions for both sides. To do things by force should be a last resort.

Thank you for coming to a reasonable conclusion. Now, why not implement that same philosophy when it comes to harassing a law-abiding citizen at his house? Do you think that protesting in front of the man's house, harassing him and disturbing the peace really paints your movement in a positive light?

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

Thank you for coming to a reasonable conclusion. Now, why not implement that same philosophy when it comes to harassing a law-abiding citizen at his house? Do you think that protesting in front of the man's house, harassing him and disturbing the peace really paints your movement in a positive light?

No one is in any danger when one is peacefully protesting. And no laws are being broken in doing this, either.

And seeing as there is no point in protesting at the abortion mill on a holiday [because it's closed] then it is sensible to take it to the homes of the doctors.

It is also the best way to get your message across. Because you know, most likely, if you go to his door and knock he's going to slam the door in your face as soon as you tell him why you're there.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Rusha

I agree it works as well as any other *quick fix* method of intimidation.

What would those be?

You may very well cause a few women to leave because they don't want to be confronted, however, the goal is that they see reason and value in the unborn.

I see little difference. You're simply using "intimidation" as if it's a bad thing. Sure, it's intimidating to mothers going in to kill their children to find people who vocally oppose abortion outside the facility. But then there is hardly going to be a non-intimidating way to tell someone their plan amounts to murder.

IF they do not change their view to valuing the unborn and wanting to protect their child thereby leaving because they are intimidated, why would you believe they just won't go elsewhere?

Perhaps they will.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

Thank you for coming to a reasonable conclusion. Now, why not implement that same philosophy when it comes to harassing a law-abiding citizen at his house? Do you think that protesting in front of the man's house, harassing him and disturbing the peace really paints your movement in a positive light?

As past experience has shown what it does do are attract the real crazies from the woodwork, the ones who leave fake blood, baby dolls, and other charming grotesqueries laying around the neighborhood.

It's only a matter of time before an abortionist is shot to death at his home, and predictably, the ones doing the protesting in his neighborhood will all insist that they had nothing to do with the violence.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Granite

As past experience has shown what it does do are attract the real crazies from the woodwork, the ones who leave fake blood, baby dolls, and other charming grotesqueries laying around the neighborhood.

It's only a matter of time before an abortionist is shot to death at his home, and predictably, the ones doing the protesting in his neighborhood will all insist that they had nothing to do with the violence.

funny enough, I was thinking the same thing. Not the attracting of crazies (good catch though), but the eventual homicide.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

No one is in any danger when one is peacefully protesting. And no laws are being broken in doing this, either.

And seeing as there is no point in protesting at the abortion mill on a holiday [because it's closed] then it is sensible to take it to the homes of the doctors.

It is also the best way to get your message across. Because you know, most likely, if you go to his door and knock he's going to slam the door in your face as soon as you tell him why you're there.

Do you truly believe that he's listening to you and respects you as sensible people with your signs and loudspeakers and FRIGGING CROSSES ON HIS FRONT LAWN?? (and don't even pretend you don't know what symbolism that brings up.)

All the protestors are doing is being annoying. He went right back to the office the following week, and I bet he doesn't feel the least bit guilty about it either. I wouldn't either. If he logically disagrees with your philosophy on the matter, than explaining it in a loud and more annoying manner doesn't help in the least bit.