[Rusha]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

How many of you on this thread would be inclined to take someone seriously on an issue that you feel you are in the right on just because they come to your house and harrass you and your neighbors in an attempt to coerce or intimidate you into adopting their viewpoint?

Show of hands, please.

Well, I will compare this to the debate and witnessing that goes when the topic of trying to convince someone that God exists.

People that are obnoxious, name call and resort to the accusation of "you know I am right and are just lying" are completely disregarded.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

My whole point in asking the question was to point out that it is highly unlikely Mr. King would have allowed that before any protesting took place.

It's too late to know for sure now, anyways. So that's a moot point.

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

If he wants it to stop all he has to do is stop killing children. As you said it's annoying. And not allowing a child killer to have tranquility is a great tactic, if you ask me.

If I recall correctly, they've been doing this for a while now, correct? Clearly it hasn't been working, since he doesn't seem to care. It's time to try something else.

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I know a few of the people who were there. So I know what their intent was. And the discussion isn't about the video as much as it is about home protests.

The topic is about this particular protest on Labor day, and the video showing it.

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

The tactics used by the Klan involve planting the crosses in yards at night and setting them ablaze. The cross was neither planted in the yard, nor set ablaze. And it was the middle of the day. And if the murderer is white you really have no leg to stand on.

Putting a cross up on someone's front lawn. Ask anyone not of your fundie camp what kind of symbolism that evokes in their head. You're gonna get the same answer, regardless of race. It's connected to the same intimidation tactics.

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

What was not peaceable?
I didn't see a megaphone.

Apologies. They were just yelling. The close proximity to the camera threw me off. If that's the case then fine. Odds are he can't even hear you, so I suppose it isn't disturbing the peace. I can live with that. And so can he, apparently

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Any, anyway, they weren't doing anything illegal. The police have no reason to ask them to leave. There's nothing they could legally do.

Well, if he really wanted to stick it to you, and he knew his way around the internet, he could do counter-protests at their churches and homes, holding up signs that say various expletives and pictures of Jesus getting raped by a dolphin, while dictating every single flaw in that 2000 year old book of folklore that you so vehemently defend. I mean, that's just as legally protected as pictures of aborted fetuses, right?

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

How many of you on this thread would be inclined to take someone seriously on an issue that you feel you are in the right on just because they come to your house and harrass you and your neighbors in an attempt to coerce or intimidate you into adopting their viewpoint?

If someone came to my house and told me I was killing kids I'd take that very seriously.

Originally Posted by Rusha

Action that I believe is harmful to the pro-life movement, of course I do.

Saving children is harming the pro-life movement now?

Of course there is more than way ... as long as your goal is limited to momentary results that are quickly forgotten once you are out of eyesight.

Then quit complaining.

No ... I would much rather be like you and stomp my feet and temporarily intimidate people so I can pat myself on the back and pretend that a difference has been made.

I'm not stomping my feet and I'm not intimidating anyone.

Are you intimidated?

Pro lifers could ABSOLUTELY make a stand for what they believe in without resorting to in your face tactics. Why is it that you believe that the only way to get your point across is being overly aggressive and obnoxious?

I don't believe it is. I don't believe anyone has been shown aggressive or obnoxious.

Can you share a way to tell people that abortion is murder without intimidating them?

The fact of the matter is, Stripe, is that pro-choicers have the law on THEIR side. Unless your tactic appeals to their emotions and needs favorably, they have absolutely no reason to listen to anything you say.

And the law is also on the side of those protesting.

They don't have to listen. They just have to hear.

No, intimidation is for those who have limited social and reasoning skills. Because you are unable to present your POV reasonably, your ideas are rejected. Yelling and intimidating the opposition just serves to make you feel like you have accomplished something.

I think I've been more than reasonable. I haven't yelled or intimidated anyone.

[Green Goblin]

Stripe. This isn't saving any kids. It's wasting a holiday standing outside someone's house whom I'm fairly certain can't hear their cries outside, nor cares.

Fetuses are getting aborted just as often as before they came. Give itu p. This tactic isn't working...

[Granite]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

How many of you on this thread would be inclined to take someone seriously on an issue that you feel you are in the right on just because they come to your house and harrass you and your neighbors in an attempt to coerce or intimidate you into adopting their viewpoint?

Show of hands, please.

Exactly.

Why not spend a holiday with your family as opposed to trying to ruin someone else's?

Talk about sad commentary.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

If I recall correctly, they've been doing this for a while now, correct? Clearly it hasn't been working, since he doesn't seem to care. It's time to try something else.

As far as I know this is only the second time.

The topic is about this particular protest on Labor day, and the video showing it.

Putting a cross up on someone's front lawn. Ask anyone not of your fundie camp what kind of symbolism that evokes in their head. You're gonna get the same answer, regardless of race. It's connected to the same intimidation tactics.

It wasn't on his front lawn. It was on the sidewalk, being held up by a person. It wasn't just left there.

Apologies. They were just yelling. The close proximity to the camera threw me off. If that's the case then fine. Odds are he can't even hear you, so I suppose it isn't disturbing the peace. I can live with that. And so can he, apparently

We'll see.

Well, if he really wanted to stick it to you, and he knew his way around the internet, he could do counter-protests at their churches and homes, holding up signs that say various expletives and pictures of Jesus getting raped by a dolphin, while dictating every single flaw in that 2000 year old book of folklore that you so vehemently defend. I mean, that's just as legally protected as pictures of aborted fetuses, right?

Actually that's religious persecution.

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by Rusha

Well, I will compare this to the debate and witnessing that goes when the topic of trying to convince someone that God exists.

I would say that the comparison holds if they are trying to coerce or intimidate someone into beleif.

People that are obnoxious, name call and resort to the accusation of "you know I am right and are just lying" are completely disregarded.

As they should be.

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by Stripe

If someone came to my house and told me I was killing kids I'd take that very seriously.

Would you? If you believed that you were not in fact killing kids but providing a legitimate medical service? The tone of their voice or their digusting signs would convince you where all other argunments had failed?
If muslims started picketing YOUR house because you eat pork and drink alcohol would that make you consider that maybe they were right and that your were irritating God?
If liberals starting hanging around your house because of your political views would it make you consider their case?
I find that hard to believe, Stripe. I think that you react like any other normal person who feels they are being persecuted by fantatics- write them off as nutjobs. When abortion ends in this country it will be because people recognize the value of human life not because of thugs screaming at private citizens.

[Rusha]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Actually that's religious persecution.

No it's not ... it's called freedom of speech. Religious persecution only exists in the minds of those who do not like being disagreed with or not given special consideration.

Either free speech and demonstration is a right that all share or it is a right that no one should be allowed. Which is it?

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

As far as I know this is only the second time.

Looks like they also did Father's Day and Memorial Day. and I KNOW they did the 4th of July too.

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

It wasn't on his front lawn. It was on the sidewalk, being held up by a person. It wasn't just left there.

I'm not the only one to see this. A couple of my coworkers laughed at that part too. And I'm sure the people at FSTDT will have a ball with it as well (bout to post it up there )

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

We'll see.

If you're honestly do insistent that this is a proper course of action, why not attach a cut-off date to it as well. Say, by the end of the year? If he doesn't give up his aborting ways by the end of the year, due to these protests, you'll concede that a new course of action needs to be done. Sound reasonable?

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Actually that's religious persecution.

And what they're doing is also persecution. I honestly couldn't give a crap if it's religious in nature or not. Heck, if anything, religious persecution probably bothers me LESS. At least he wouldn't be protesting your right to provide a service for society. Religion is just an opiate and a crutch for the gullible. I'd put this theoretical "religious persecution" on the same level as team-bashing at a sports arena.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Rusha

No it's not ... it's called freedom of speech. Religious persecution only exists in the minds of those who do not like being disagreed with or not given special consideration.

Either free speech and demonstration is a right that all share or it is a right that no one should be allowed. Which is it?

I know the laws we have contradict the rights we are given in the Constitution and I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm merely pointing out the reality of the situation.

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

Looks like they also did Father's Day and Memorial Day. and I KNOW they did the 4th of July too.

OK.

I'm not the only one to see this. A couple of my coworkers laughed at that part too. And I'm sure the people at FSTDT will have a ball with it as well (bout to post it up there )

You're seeing things.

If you're honestly do insistent that this is a proper course of action, why not attach a cut-off date to it as well. Say, by the end of the year? If he doesn't give up his aborting ways by the end of the year, due to these protests, you'll concede that a new course of action needs to be done. Sound reasonable?

I like the idea that if by a certain date he does not cease that no matter what we will not leave him alone until he dies. Like the collaborators project does with the contractors.

And what they're doing is also persecution. I honestly couldn't give a crap if it's religious in nature or not. Heck, if anything, religious persecution probably bothers me LESS. At least he wouldn't be protesting your right to provide a service for society. Religion is just an opiate and a crutch for the gullible. I'd put this theoretical "religious persecution" on the same level as team-bashing at a sports arena.

Not all persecution is illegal.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin

Stripe. This isn't saving any kids. It's wasting a holiday standing outside someone's house whom I'm fairly certain can't hear their cries outside, nor cares.

Rusha and I were talking about a different aspect of the group's work.

Fetuses are getting aborted just as often as before they came. Give itu p. This tactic isn't working...

Clearly this tactic is not about saving kids directly.

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

Would you?

Yes.

If you believed that you were not in fact killing kids but providing a legitimate medical service?

That would make me a child killer with a seared conscience. I'm no such thing.

The tone of their voice or their digusting signs would convince you where all other argunments had failed?

Why would a man who dismembers babies find pictures of his work disgusting?

If muslims started picketing YOUR house because you eat pork and drink alcohol would that make you consider that maybe they were right and that your were irritating God?

No. It'd make me mock the mooslims. Eating pork and drinking alcohol is not immoral.

If liberals starting hanging around your house because of your political views would it make you consider their case?

Having political views is not immoral.

I find that hard to believe, Stripe. I think that you react like any other normal person who feels they are being persecuted by fantatics- write them off as nutjobs.

People who kill kids for a living are anything but "normal".

When abortion ends in this country it will be because people recognize the value of human life not because of thugs screaming at private citizens.

You're using pejorative to try an win a lame point. The people in the video were not thugs and nor were they screaming. Your point is lame because there is no way to change people's minds without standing against what they believe.

[PlastikBuddha]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Yes.

I will try to take you at your word on this, but from what I've seen of your style this seems a little out of character.

That would make me a child killer with a seared conscience. I'm no such thing.

I'm not saying you are. I AM saying that if two people disagree on whether or not abortion is murder in the first place that showing up in front of their house with protesters and signs isn't likely to change anyone's mind. I suspect you are purposefully missing the point.

Why would a man who dismembers babies find pictures of his work disgusting?

Would any other medical professional like people parading around outside his home with explicit pictures? A brain surgeon? A gynecologist?

No. It'd make me mock the mooslims. Eating pork and drinking alcohol is not immoral.

They think it is. Why wouldn't you bother to listen to them since you seem to expect others to automatically recognize your position simply by you showing up in their neighborhood with an angry mob?

Having political views is not immoral.

I think some here would disagree but that's neither here nor there. Again the point isn't the morality or immorality but the impact on your own position. You are implying that this behaviour will make a person who does NOT think that abortion is immoral suddenly recognize the error of their ways.

People who kill kids for a living are anything but "normal".

How is that even remotely related to what I was talking about?

You're using pejorative to try an win a lame point.

It's about as perjorative as calling a person who isn't breaking the law a murderer.

The people in the video were not thugs and nor were they screaming.

I'm speaking about the intimidation tactics of taking the protests to people's homes in general. I think trying to intimidate people into falling into line with a particular viewpoint is nothing but thuggish.

Your point is lame because there is no way to change people's minds without standing against what they believe.

It's not because they are trying to change minds that I object. It's the methodology. You can shift opinion with rational argument and facts or with a crowbar. Guess which category I think these "home visits" fit into?

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha

I'm not saying you are. I AM saying that if two people disagree on whether or not abortion is murder in the first place that showing up in front of their house with protesters and signs isn't likely to change anyone's mind. I suspect you are purposefully missing the point.

The chances of them changing their minds is irrelevant. The point is that abortion needs to be resisted by people who believe it is murder .. elsewise they can't really call themselves "pro-life" now can they?

Would any other medical professional like people parading around outside his home with explicit pictures? A brain surgeon? A gynecologist?

If you feel that those things are on a par with murdering children then you are welcome to try. In the meantime how about you stick with reality?

They think it is. Why wouldn't you bother to listen to them since you seem to expect others to automatically recognize your position simply by you showing up in their neighborhood with an angry mob?

I would automatically recognise their position. Why do you continue to use pejorative to make your point? What angry mob did you see displayed?

I think some here would disagree but that's neither here nor there. Again the point isn't the morality or immorality but the impact on your own position. You are implying that this behaviour will make a person who does NOT think that abortion is immoral suddenly recognize the error of their ways.

Maybe they will.

That's hardly the point though, is it?

How is that even remotely related to what I was talking about?

You suggest that a person who kills kids for a living is "normal".

It's about as perjorative as calling a person who isn't breaking the law a murderer.

You do not think that taking a baby from his mother and killing him is murder?

It's not because they are trying to change minds that I object. It's the methodology. You can shift opinion with rational argument and facts or with a crowbar. Guess which category I think these "home visits" fit into?

Crowbar.

Rational arguments are easily ignored.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Rusha

No it's not ... it's called freedom of speech. Religious persecution only exists in the minds of those who do not like being disagreed with or not given special consideration.

Either free speech and demonstration is a right that all share or it is a right that no one should be allowed. Which is it?

These people love making themselves out to be victims.

I'm sick to death of hearing them whine and complain about persecution. Go to Sudan or North Korea, chump. Then get back to me. If you can.