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Stripe Stripe is online now
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November 16th, 2009, 07:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
As much as we love to argue over these issues they are, ultimately, nonessential. They may affect which church I choose to attend, but they're not going to affect anyone's salvation.
You haven't understood where I'm coming from. I do not say these issues are non-essential. I am saying they are non-issues in the bible.

Undoubtedly if they had been issues in the bible then this thread would not exist. But they aren't. And there is only one reason why they aren't .. because the answer to each issue is so patently obvious.

Quote:
Sounds good and fine yes? But there is one issue, when one of these "side issues" becomes a stumbling block for someone and that is where we must be careful to recognize that people have options. The options in these cases are not "wrong" in the sense that believing either way will not cause people to lose their salvation.
People can't lose their salvation.

Quote:
Unfortunately the discussions can get so heated that Christians forget the commands for unity in scripture and attack the faith of one another. I am all for unity, within the essentials of the Christian faith.
The essentials of the Christian faith only work out as rational if you accept the word of God as accurate and reliable.





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November 16th, 2009, 08:19 AM

The core issue is an understanding of just what the bible is about (man or God) and who is to be glorified (man or God).

It is no mistake that during the last 200 years most of the theological developments in christianity have been geared toward the elevation of man and the marginalization of God.. whether they like to admit it or not. I view it as the humanization of the bible.



   
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November 16th, 2009, 09:12 AM

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Originally Posted by HisServant View Post
It is no mistake that during the last 200 years most of the theological developments in christianity have been geared toward the elevation of man and the marginalization of God.. whether they like to admit it or not. I view it as the humanization of the bible.


A guy prepared to argue against what the bible clearly says ain't helping share the truth.





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

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November 16th, 2009, 10:16 AM

Scientific research from Y. E. Creationists brings people to Christ because it breaks down the dearly held excuses that most scientifically-oriented people use to reject God.

Good theology brings people to Christ because it breaks down extreme, false theology that causes people to reject God.

Debates on Moses vs. Darwin, Paul vs. Calvin are good debates if their purpose is to bring people to Christ. When the debates become fleshly arguments used to push people who already are in Christ away, to cause unnecessary divisions, to become elevated above the gospel, that's when they become a problem.



   
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November 16th, 2009, 11:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Two big issues on TOL are the doctrines of Calvin vs Open Theism and the interpretation of Genesis in light of modern science vs a simple reading.

I'm of the opinion that such doctrinal disputes are not directly discussed in the bible. In the bible the debates are over the legitimacy of Christ's claims and the means by which we are saved.

It's not evidence one way or the other on how creation and freewill should be determined, but I think the bible is a good indication over where the battle lines should be drawn.

Perhaps it is a distraction to argue freewill/predestination when it is not an issue in the bible.

Perhaps it is a sign of how immature the debate is when we cannot agree that modern scientific thinking and Genesis are incompatible.

Perhaps we should pick our battles more according to how the bible picks its battles.

What say you?
Agreed





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November 16th, 2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Two big issues on TOL are the doctrines of Calvin vs Open Theism and the interpretation of Genesis in light of modern science vs a simple reading.

I'm of the opinion that such doctrinal disputes are not directly discussed in the bible. In the bible the debates are over the legitimacy of Christ's claims and the means by which we are saved.

It's not evidence one way or the other on how creation and freewill should be determined, but I think the bible is a good indication over where the battle lines should be drawn.

Perhaps it is a distraction to argue freewill/predestination when it is not an issue in the bible.

Perhaps it is a sign of how immature the debate is when we cannot agree that modern scientific thinking and Genesis are incompatible.

Perhaps we should pick our battles more according to how the bible picks its battles.

What say you?
It's not an issue in the Bible because they were all OV.





   
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November 17th, 2009, 03:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Exactly the opposite. I'm saying we might learn something from the fact that the bible simply ignores the debate.

It's my opinion that when God ignores stupid ideas it's good evidence that the ideas are stupid.
So for these two examples....

Evolution isn't mentioned so it's a stupid idea?

And predestination isn't mentioned so it's a stupid idea?





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November 17th, 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Perhaps we should pick our battles more according to how the bible picks its battles.

What say you?
Perhaps Calvinism isn't a big issue in the Bible because God didn't imagine people would be so stupid?

Sorta like when He stated....

Jeremiah 19:5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind

Maybe Calvinism didn't come to God's mind?

And just on the off chance that people would be so dumb as to invent Calvinism God did ask that we defend His name against it...

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Summarized...
God says... Let no one say he is tempted by God. Calvinists say that God not only tempts people but actually orchestrates the sin from beginning to end.





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November 17th, 2009, 08:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Perhaps Calvinism isn't a big issue in the Bible because God didn't imagine people would be so stupid?





   
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November 17th, 2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Perhaps Calvinism isn't a big issue in the Bible because God didn't imagine people would be so stupid?

Sorta like when He stated....

Jeremiah 19:5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind

Maybe Calvinism didn't come to God's mind?

And just on the off chance that people would be so dumb as to invent Calvinism God did ask that we defend His name against it...

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Summarized...
God says... Let no one say he is tempted by God. Calvinists say that God not only tempts people but actually orchestrates the sin from beginning to end.
Excellent point. And excellent use of the highlighter, too.





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November 17th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
So for these two examples....

Evolution isn't mentioned so it's a stupid idea?

And predestination isn't mentioned so it's a stupid idea?
No. Something is not automatically stupid because it is not in the bible. But the bible is almost completely silent on any debate over the legitimacy of Genesis. I think that silence is strong evidence for the fact that the debate should be a non-issue between Christians.

The people described as rejecting Genesis in the bible are unbelievers. That we can expect. But between Christians the matter should be perfectly obvious. I think God preferred to leave obvious yet non-essential answers out of the bible for simple and obvious reasons.

Those omissions should not open the door for Christians to believe any old story because they don't like the one written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Perhaps Calvinism isn't a big issue in the Bible because God didn't imagine people would be so stupid?
Exactly! That's reason number 1. Reason number 2 would be space. Imagine God had gone to the effort of ruling out every stupid idea that men might invent?





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

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Alate_One Alate_One is offline
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November 18th, 2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Perhaps Calvinism isn't a big issue in the Bible because God didn't imagine people would be so stupid?

Sorta like when He stated....

Jeremiah 19:5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind

Maybe Calvinism didn't come to God's mind?
Gee except for the word "elect" that appears so many times?

Quote:
And just on the off chance that people would be so dumb as to invent Calvinism God did ask that we defend His name against it...

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Summarized...
God says... Let no one say he is tempted by God. Calvinists say that God not only tempts people but actually orchestrates the sin from beginning to end.
And here is the problem, you're not talking about actual Calvinism you're talking about some crazy caricature of it.

Kind of like how Stripe talks about evolution.



   
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November 18th, 2009, 07:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You haven't understood where I'm coming from. I do not say these issues are non-essential. I am saying they are non-issues in the bible.

Undoubtedly if they had been issues in the bible then this thread would not exist. But they aren't. And there is only one reason why they aren't .. because the answer to each issue is so patently obvious.
In that case I DO disagree with you. The issues you listed as examples are certainly not "patently obvious". If they were there wouldn't be debates over them.

Quote:
People can't lose their salvation.
You misunderstood what I was saying. Do you not believe that someone can be far enough "off" in their beliefs as to be unsaved?

Quote:
The essentials of the Christian faith only work out as rational if you accept the word of God as accurate and reliable.
Are you trying to say I don't accept God's word in this way?



   
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November 18th, 2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
Gee except for the word "elect" that appears so many times?
Oh no! The word "elect" is in the bible. That must mean God decided who would go where before anyone got to choose!

Watch out! The word "die" is in the bible too. And the word "day"!

And .. wow .. lookit that .. the word "whosoever" as well. I guess the bible is just full of contradictory words.

Quote:
And here is the problem, you're not talking about actual Calvinism you're talking about some crazy caricature of it.
So you're a theologian now?

Quote:
Kind of like how Stripe talks about evolution.
Evolution says that fish can turn into people. How is that a "crazy caricature"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
In that case I DO disagree with you. The issues you listed as examples are certainly not "patently obvious". If they were there wouldn't be debates over them.
Actually, they are patently obvious. God says He created the world and all that is in it in six days. Nowhere in the bible is this simple understanding debated.

God says that whosoever believes and trusts in Christ will gain eternal life. Nowhere in the bible is there any suggestion that God decides for people where they will spend eternity.

Where these points might come up in scripture is where atheists are mentioned as trying to mock the word of God.

Quote:
You misunderstood what I was saying. Do you not believe that someone can be far enough "off" in their beliefs as to be unsaved?
The only way someone can be unsaved is if they reject Christ as their saviour. I cannot decide accurately who is, and who is not saved. But if someone were to come to me and suggest that 90% of the bible was fabricated to placate an ancient mindset then I would seriously doubt that that same person could have a serious belief in Christ as risen saviour.

Quote:
Are you trying to say I don't accept God's word in this way?
You reject the clear teaching of the bible. The bible says man was created on Day 6 in the image of God. You think men descended from fish over billions of years.

You say the land was formed over billions of years by magical plates sliding around on magical carpets of solid rock somehow, the bible says the world was formed out of water in two stages, one stage lasting two days, the second stage still being settled from the flood.

You reject two very clear, unambiguous and unanimously supported aspects of history as presented by the bible. The only other people who do that, in the bible, are atheists.

If you were a Christian and desired unity it should be at the expense of your dearly held beliefs in favour of what the bible clearly teaches.





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

"...the waters under the "expanse" were under the crust."
-Bob B.

Nominate POTYs. See this thread.

Last edited by Stripe; November 18th, 2009 at 08:33 AM..
   
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November 18th, 2009, 08:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
A guy prepared to argue against what the bible clearly says ain't helping share the truth.
Amen.





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