TOL Topic of the Day - Chime In!Every day we will post a new topic and we want to get your comments on that topic. The topic could be about literally anything from the vague to the specific, important or trivial. The TOL membership can take that topic and run with it!
My view is that you shouldn't socially punish people for their sins - it is not our place to act as judges on non-Christians, not yet at any rate.
It's one thing to acknowledge that we are all sinners, that we all need salvation and forgiveness, and to lovingly present the gospel - it is another to attack people for their sins, verbally or otherwise.
Homosexuals are a great example of a group of people that the modern church tends to outcast and condemn.
That would depend upon the manner in which you presented the gospel. If your going around yelling at people that they are going to hell - then yes it would be wrong.
Yes, that would be really bad. It's not effective in the least and only makes a mockery of Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
You said "This is exactly what Jesus did" in response to my condemnation of the preachers on campus - no Jesus did not act like the preachers on campus. If you saw them - you would be (or should be) appalled. The example was not simply going to college and telling people about Jesus (that is fine and good), the example was in reference to the campus preachers I'VE seen.
Also, while repentance was definately big in Jesus' message, he was not going around attacking people for their sins - that is what campus preachers do. They don't spend time to get to know people, they don't meet their needs - they simply show up and start condemning them - that is NOT Jesus' model.
Dude, you are so frustrating.
I give you an example of a method of evangelism (go to a college, tell people to repent and trust Jesus, if they reject tell them they are going to hell and judgment day will be really bad for them). Then you say, that's the wrong way to do it. Then I show scripture that shows my example is exactly what Jesus did.
Now you are telling me that you weren't disagreeing with my example, you were disagreeing with the example of some campus preachers that I've never seen and know nothing about.
How are we supposed to have a conversation when you are seemingly responding to my example yet secretly disagreeing with the example of someone else?
"Broad is the path that leads to destruction and many are they follow it; but narrow is the path that leads to life and few are them that find it."
Slogan/motto:
Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
Reputation:
November 19th, 2009, 09:40 AM
This is a very serious subject. I have struggled with my own tendency to judge the behavior of others rather quickly. I often find my foot in my mouth and must remove it to apologize or backtrack. Whenever I have been moved to make pronouncements on the behavior of others I have learned to be sure I have the facts. Only God has the big picture and truly knows the heart of His children. No doubt that is why we are warned scripturally many times that judgment is His attribute and He guards it jealously. Yet, we Christians are obligated to bring each other to the mark. Life is not a popularity contest and we must not shirk our responsibilities to one another. I might say to someone "That road will surely lead you away from the light of God's presence". But I am not competent to say for sure "You are going to Hell!". bybee
This is a very serious subject. I have struggled with my own tendency to judge the behavior of others rather quickly. I often find my foot in my mouth and must remove it to apologize or backtrack. Whenever I have been moved to make pronouncements on the behavior of others I have learned to be sure I have the facts. Only God has the big picture and truly knows the heart of His children. No doubt that is why we are warned scripturally many times that judgment is His attribute and He guards it jealously. Yet, we Christians are obligated to bring each other to the mark. Life is not a popularity contest and we must not shirk our responsibilities to one another. I might say to someone "That road will surely lead you away from the light of God's presence". But I am not competent to say for sure "You are going to Hell!". bybee
I don't believe we should ever judge anyone as going to hell for their behavior. Jesus said that the reason men are judged is not based on what they do, but rather what they believe.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18
I may be wrong, but I don't believe that the context of judging others that is supported in this thread, is about judging people with regards to their eternal destiny based on what they do (if it was, we would all be found guilty), but rather judging people based on what they do as to how it should be dealt with among men in order to maintain a civil society, which is also something that God would have us do (Rom 13).
I give you an example of a method of evangelism (go to a college, tell people to repent and trust Jesus, if they reject tell them they are going to hell and judgment day will be really bad for them). Then you say, that's the wrong way to do it. Then I show scripture that shows my example is exactly what Jesus did.
Now you are telling me that you weren't disagreeing with my example, you were disagreeing with the example of some campus preachers that I've never seen and know nothing about.
How are we supposed to have a conversation when you are seemingly responding to my example yet secretly disagreeing with the example of someone else?
I was responding to your post - not something else. You are the one switching around what were talking about.
But for clarification - yes it would be bad to go to a college campus and tell people they are going to hell if they reject your message. It is not constructive in the least.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
The only ones Christ was really harsh towards were those who considered themselves righteous - the Pharisees [those WITHIN the church]. Christ didn't go around yelling at the homos and other sinners - he sat down with them and spent time with them, he met there needs, and he respectfully presented his message. He did not start yelling at them or something like you would see today.
Quote:
Who does that? Aside from telling homos to stop being utterly disgusting perverts that they are.
Like I said earlier, homosexuals are a great example of a group of people whom Christians like to socially outcast. Completely goes against Christ's example and scripture. I Cor 5.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
Slogan/motto:
Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
Reputation:
Agreed -
November 19th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ∅2L84U
I don't believe we should ever judge anyone as going to hell for their behavior. Jesus said that the reason men are judged is not based on what they do, but rather what they believe.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18
I may be wrong, but I don't believe that the context of judging others that is supported in this thread, is about judging people with regards to their eternal destiny based on what they do (if it was, we would all be found guilty), but rather judging people based on what they do as to how it should be dealt with among men in order to maintain a civil society, which is also something that God would have us do (Rom 13).
You make excellent points! And germaine too! I'm afraid I was responding to the thought of how easy it is to slip into judging people and finding them wanting. To maintain a civil society does indeed require judgment. peace, bybee
Judging is a problem that goes with being human; and it's almost impossible not to place a judgement for a friend o a foe. God knows this and Jesus also knew this. The ten commandments in the old testament define the grounds of basic morality; both carnal and espiritual.
And the sermon of the mount ex-plains the same but with that liberating twist that Jesus had for the old testament.
If you can think it you can do it...
If you for-give it you did it or can do it.
Judgement has consequences, both carnal and espiritual; justice is a judgement that includes grace and compassion.
God's love is justice for all; believers and non-believers, so for-give as you are for-given.
There is God's love even in "a life for a life". Carnal death is peace and justice at the same time.
Slogan/motto:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” John 5:24 NKJV
Reputation:
November 20th, 2009, 07:20 AM
Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."
Strong’s #2019 is krino - judge - a single Greek word for a complex command. In Mat 7:1 we are told: “Judge not” while in 1 Cor 5:12 we are told “Do you not judge those who are inside?” - or, it is our responsibility to keep God’s body clean, i.e. the church.
The answer is to determine the deeper meaning of “krino” from the context in which it is used. In Matthew it means to condemn - in Corinthians it means to evaluate without condemning - condemnation is the responsibility of God alone.
Csuguy:
Actually, you are - hence you keep bringing up criminal law.
I like how you all have stopped referring to scripture - because it doesn't agree with you.
Yankeedoodled:
God and His ten commandments were an early beginning of established law establishing criminal behavior and consequences. Be it understood that failing to judge is failing to know the difference between good and evil. As for judging and perceiving the loss of eternal life/damnation of people, the Bible has already given abundant examples telling you of those that are damned, no eternal life. Some one stopped refering while you never stopped ignoring.
Psalm 9:8
And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (King James Version)
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Yankeedoodled:
Those that revile righteousness/judgment will engage in contortionist pretzel playing to deny that which is of God, His Word, His Will, His Way.
Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."
Strong’s #2019 is krino - judge - a single Greek word for a complex command. In Mat 7:1 we are told: “Judge not” while in 1 Cor 5:12 we are told “Do you not judge those who are inside?” - or, it is our responsibility to keep God’s body clean, i.e. the church.
The answer is to determine the deeper meaning of “krino” from the context in which it is used. In Matthew it means to condemn - in Corinthians it means to evaluate without condemning - condemnation is the responsibility of God alone.
In John 3:18 we have Jesus saying those who do not believe are already condemned. It is my view that they condemn themselves when they deny Him.
Slogan/motto:
Most people see themselves as human beings having spiritual experiences, I am a spiritual being having human experiences.
Reputation:
November 23rd, 2009, 09:26 AM
You don't witness the Gospel. You witness the love of God. The Gospels are just guides to understand our daily communion with God, if in fact you commune with Him. Truth is revelaed through Him, not in the words in any book. If the truth is in the words of the Gospel, why are there literally thousands of interpretations and who knows how many different christian denominations.
You don't witness the Gospel. You witness the love of God. The Gospels are just guides to understand our daily communion with God, if in fact you commune with Him. Truth is revelaed through Him, not in the words in any book. If the truth is in the words of the Gospel, why are there literally thousands of interpretations and who knows how many different christian denominations.
Hey, everyone! Meet someone with no idea what "gospel" actually means, or what the gospel really is.
Slogan/motto:
Most people see themselves as human beings having spiritual experiences, I am a spiritual being having human experiences.
Reputation:
November 24th, 2009, 02:52 PM
Explain to me how one can witness something that happend 2000 years ago. You may be able to witness how the gospels have inspired you but to witness the gospels is to use the words of others as your witness. You make an awfully big assumption to think that the 4 gospels and all the epistles were written by God or God inspired. How reliable are these scribes? Please tell me how well the historians know their character? Are you saying that 2000 years ago the cleric were saints and the corruption in the clergy in today's society is something new? Please tell me how well you know Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, or even Paul or at least point me to someone who has first hand knowledge of these scribes.
Agreed -
November 19th, 2009, 01:51 PM
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