[Traditio]

I once read that at the hour of one's death, the Angels and the Saints, Our Blessed Mother, St. Michael the Angel, and Christ Himself come to the dying person and plead with him, even at that last moment, to turn to Him. Do you believe it, TOL? Ok, ok, fine, fine. Lest the thread degenerate into some supposed Catholic hagiolatry, let's leave out the Angels, the Saints, and Our Blessed Mother. Do you think that Christ appears to the dying person at his final hour and pleads with him one last time to convert?

I'll always, I think, remember the death of my great aunt (a very faithful, so far as I know, Catholic woman), requiescat in pace. A few days before her death, she had an image of the Sacred Heart and then Christ Himself. Of course, it may have been some sort of hallucination on her part. Who knows?

So often, the theological talk is about Christ either as Merciful Savior or Just Judge, and about how we are to approach Him during our life, or how He will deal with us after our death. What about the hour of our death, though?

There are accounts of how many famous people died, the last words they spoke.

The accounts of Hume's and Voltaire's death are striking. I also once heard/read (I know not whether or not this is true) that Stalin, dying, asked pardon of the chairs in his room.

Do you think that Christ came to them in their final hours, and did they turn away?

Too much emphasis is given to Christ as saviour sacrificed and judgemental God respectively. So little attention, I think, is given to Christ as lover, so to speak. Indeed, Christ loves us, doesn't He? We see this in the Canticle of Canticles and in the book of Osee (Hosea, I guess), among other places.

What does it mean to love someone? Is Plato right when he says in the Republic (490a-b) that the lover desires to be united with his beloved? If so, then if Christ loves us, can He stand to be seperated from us? If He truly loves us, would He cease, even for a moment, to plead with us to come back to Him? If He truly loves us, would He, at the hour of our death, if we are at risk of being seperated from Him forever, not make one last ditch effort to bring us back?

Is this not what we see with the Good Thief? I don't know.

What do you think, TOL? Does Christ (and possibly the Angels and Saints, and Our Blessed Mother) appear to the dying person either 1. to convert or 2. to reassure him in his final hour? When Satan comes up to claim his prize, does St. Michael the Archangel come down in one last effort to rescue the dying man?

[Cracked]

Originally Posted by Traditio

I once read that at the hour of one's death, the Angels and the Saints, Our Blessed Mother, St. Michael the Angel, and Christ Himself come to the dying person and plead with him, even at that last moment, to turn to Him. Do you believe it, TOL? Ok, ok, fine, fine. Lest the thread degenerate into some supposed Catholic hagiolatry, let's leave out the Angels, the Saints, and Our Blessed Mother. Do you think that Christ appears to the dying person at his final hour and pleads with him one last time to convert?

I'll always, I think, remember the death of my great aunt (a very faithful, so far as I know, Catholic woman), requiescat in pace. A few days before her death, she had an image of the Sacred Heart and then Christ Himself. Of course, it may have been some sort of hallucination on her part. Who knows?

So often, the theological talk is about Christ either as Merciful Savior or Just Judge, and about how we are to approach Him during our life, or how He will deal with us after our death. What about the hour of our death, though?

There are accounts of how many famous people died, the last words they spoke.

The accounts of Hume's and Voltaire's death are striking. I also once heard/read (I know not whether or not this is true) that Stalin, dying, asked pardon of the chairs in his room.

Do you think that Christ came to them in their final hours, and did they turn away?

Too much emphasis is given to Christ as saviour sacrificed and judgemental God respectively. So little attention, I think, is given to Christ as lover, so to speak. Indeed, Christ loves us, doesn't He? We see this in the Canticle of Canticles and in the book of Osee (Hosea, I guess), among other places.

What does it mean to love someone? Is Plato right when he says in the Republic (490a-b) that the lover desires to be united with his beloved? If so, then if Christ loves us, can He stand to be seperated from us? If He truly loves us, would He cease, even for a moment, to plead with us to come back to Him? If He truly loves us, would He, at the hour of our death, if we are at risk of being seperated from Him forever, not make one last ditch effort to bring us back?

Is this not what we see with the Good Thief? I don't know.

What do you think, TOL? Does Christ (and possibly the Angels and Saints, and Our Blessed Mother) appear to the dying person either 1. to convert or 2. to reassure him in his final hour? When Satan comes up to claim his prize, does St. Michael the Archangel come down in one last effort to rescue the dying man?

Everyone has an honest chance, and to some this may occur at the time of death. I don't think that Jesus gives up on us hastily...

"Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'

Luke 15:3-6

[El DLo]

I have a friend with a devastatingly bad heart condition which causes his body to at times spontaneously cease to function. By medical definition, he's been dead over 5 times, and he's never witnessed any such thing, or any semblance of an after-life while he was dead. What do you make of that?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Do you think that Christ appears to the dying person at his final hour and pleads with him one last time to convert?

I don't.

[Son of Jack]

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if either is true. My guess is that it is more likely in those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel. But...

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by El DLo

I have a friend with a devastatingly bad heart condition which causes his body to at times spontaneously cease to function. By medical definition, he's been dead over 5 times, and he's never witnessed any such thing, or any semblance of an after-life while he was dead. What do you make of that?

It wasn't his time actually to die yet.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by elohiym

I don't.

Why?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Traditio

Why?

Acts 10:34 ...I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Acts 10:34 ...I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

If He loves and desires every man equally (albeit infinitely), is it really partiality?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Traditio

If He loves and desires every man equally (albeit infinitely), is it really partiality?

Should we all expect to see Christ at the hour of our death?

I think it's a little like having an expectation that Santa is coming on Christmas eve. And instead of going to all kids' houses, he just goes to the naughty kids' houses.

[El DLo]

Originally Posted by Traditio

It wasn't his time actually to die yet.

Yea I suppose that is arguable, but wouldn't God have known he would develop this heart condition?

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Should we all expect to see Christ at the hour of our death?

I don't know. That's precisely the claim that's sometimes made. He appears to those in grave sin to convert them. He appears to those who love Him to reassure them.

[Alexandros]

This question may apply more to those who come to a slow, expected death; what of those who die suddenly without even knowing that it's coming?

Given the mass of people on the planet, and the amount of dying that goes on every minute, would Christ have the time to visit even half of them? Or is he able to dilate time and space?

I think this is nothing more than a romantic notion. Perhaps it is a comforting one for some but it's no less romantic for it.

If you are dying then your mind is probably going to be a lot less... shall we say, alert, than it normally is. It's no surprise to be able to hallucinate just about anything at that point.

[Traditio]

Originally Posted by Alexandros

This question may apply more to those who come to a slow, expected death; what of those who die suddenly without even knowing that it's coming?

Perhaps Christ comes even to them. I don't know.

Given the mass of people on the planet, and the amount of dying that goes on every minute, would Christ have the time to visit even half of them? Or is he able to dilate time and space?

All things are possible for God.

[Son of Jack]

Originally Posted by Alexandros

If you are dying then your mind is probably going to be a lot less... shall we say, alert, than it normally is. It's no surprise to be able to hallucinate just about anything at that point.

That certainly may be...but at what point are we going to say that it might be something more? When 500 people have the same sort of hallucination? 1000? 5000?

Just curious...