[Nick M]

Warning to the Pentecostals! The Holy Hebrew Scriptures are about to be shown.

Genesis 12:1-3

Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 13:14-17

And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

Genesis 17:1-15

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

This is the promise of circumcision. God reveals more as time progresses, as he seems to always do. After the release from bondage, his prophet Moses delivered the law. (through Aaron)

Foreigners that come and bless Israel, and are circumcised, are a part of the promise, as clearly laid out by God.

[Nick M]

This did not change with Jesus. He did not bless the uncircumcised that did not bless Israel, and put themselves under her.

Matthew 15:21-28

Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

But He answered her not a word. (why?)

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

When she said she was nothing more than a dog at the masters table, then she was blessed! Just as God said in Genesis 12, he will bless those that bless you.

Luke 7:1-6

Now when He concluded all His sayings in the hearing of the people, He entered Capernaum. And a certain centurion’s servant, who was dear to him, was sick and ready to die. So when he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to Him, pleading with Him to come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they begged Him earnestly, saying that the one for whom He should do this was deserving, “for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue.”

Then Jesus went with them.

When the elders testified that the gentile blessed them, Jesus went with him.

[Nick M]

Jesus confirmed the law of liberty. He did not arbitrarily forgive the unrepentant, but infact, said the Mosaic law of the death penalty for children that curse their parents is proper. Seems awfully extreme by our standards today.

Matthew 15:1-6

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

Matthew 23:1-4

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

As he pointed out about cursing parents, they are hypocrites. They say obey the law, but they don't themselves. Jesus said do as they say, because they say the law.

[Nick M]

And on the the Gospel of uncircumcision. Backing up a bit, we know that Jews, and the gentiles that honored Israel by blessing them, and were brought to Israel to be circumcised, were blessed by God with a covenant. Jesus was to sit upon the throne of David and rule on earth. Not to go on a tangent, but the fact that he died for the sins of the world was not yet revealed.

Acts 1

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Acts 3:25-26

You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

They are to take this to the ends of the earth, after the return of Christ. He said stay put in Acts 1. That is the great commission.

Of course, Israel rejected the 12 and the message of the many disciples, which Luke records as 2000 early. Enter Paul, one of the worst, and an enemy of Christ. God throws a curve ball. He says watch how much he suffers for my names sake. "Consider the source" is accurate, and why God took Paul.

With Paul's new message, no longer are those who don't bless Israel lost. A gentile no longer needs to be baptized, circumcised, and honor Israel. Rather but through the fall of Israel, the gentiles are saved. The gospel of uncircumcision.

Romans 11:11

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:11-13

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The covenants of promise where what was shown in Genesis 12. Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those that curse her will be cursed. They had no hope. Peter did not preach this. Peter had to be shown this in a dream in Acts 10 by God, as Jesus did not preach this.

[godrulz]

Acts 2 disps may or may not be Pentecostal. We reject ultradispensationalism as extreme and unbiblical. We recognize the distinction between promises and covenants to Israel, some yet to be fulfilled in the future. We recognize dispensations, contrasts between Judaism and Christianity, etc.

None of your verses are a problem for Acts 2 disps, but you view them through a MAD filter. They are even less of a problem for Pentecostals, since Paul was a flaming Pentecostal himself.

MAD misreads inter-advent truths. The Church Age was a mystery, not revelation. It is of indeterminate length between the first and second coming of Christ.

We agree on much, but you have an axe to grind. It is simply indefensible NT thinking to say that there are two gospels for a limited time after the cross. This is confusion over transitional issues, etc.

Like any other issue, we all use the same Scripture, but are not immune to bias, propensity to proof text, paradigm eisegesis.

[Nick M]

Are you going to make any comments regarding the thread topic? The gospel of circumcision clearly states that gentiles go to God through Israel. Among other things.

Paul clearly later states that rather than through the blessing of Israel, we are saved through their fall. A different gospel that Peter DOES NOT PREACH. Nor Jesus.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Are you going to make any comments regarding the thread topic? The gospel of circumcision clearly states that gentiles go to God through Israel. Among other things.

Paul clearly later states that rather than through the blessing of Israel, we are saved through their fall. A different gospel that Peter DOES NOT PREACH. Nor Jesus.

If you must have a gospel of circumcision, let's call it Judaism. Jesus was intertestamental, transitional before the cross. Peter and Paul are after the cross. I agree with your OT understanding, but disagree with your post-cross understanding. Proposing an uncirc Petrine gospel in contradiction to a Pauline gospel misses soteriological roots in the cross and shifts it to the conversion of a messenger of the cross. So, Acts is selective history, not primarily didactic. I think you are missing the gospel in Peter's preaching and wrongly assuming Paul's detailed expansion of it is tantamount to a new, different one.

[Nick M]

I gladly welcome an comments on the covenant to Abraham regading gentiles from Kaite, Ben and even chair. And I can't forget Amosman or Elo.

[Stripe]

Wow. Godrulz can use lots of words without saying much, can't he?

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by godrulz

If you must have a gospel of circumcision, let's call it Judaism.

Really? You are actually right about something. Unlike below, where you contradict yourself.

Originally Posted by godrulz

MAD two gospel theories (circ vs uncirc) is not sound NT theology.

I just showed where Jesus and Peter preached the Gospel of Circumcision. Peter even quoted Moses's telling of Genesis. You are a liar.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Wow. Godrulz can use lots of words without saying much, can't he?

Practice makes perfect.

It is like a parable. Those who see my point think it is brilliant. Those who can't stand me also don't understand me.

I am not attempting a doctoral thesis to refute the view, but giving a generic call to consider alternate views that are more cogent, credible. For every Scripture thrown out, we still have paradigm, proof text, interpretational issues.

There are a variety of ultradispy, Acts 2, covenantal views often treated at book length. A few posts or threads will not definitively resolve the issues anymore than Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism has been resolved on this forum. We all have limited time, energy, expertise.

Will not is not cannot.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Really? You are actually right about something. Unlike below, where you contradict yourself.



I just showed where Jesus and Peter preached the Gospel of Circumcision. Peter even quoted Moses's telling of Genesis. You are a liar.

Slow down, Bubbalooee.

Perhaps I am not contradicting myself, but you are just not seeing the point.

Paul also quoted Genesis, Abraham, etc. (e.g. Rom. 4-5; Rom. 9-11) to prove his uncirc gospel of grace/faith. Contextualizing the one NT gospel for those of Jewish or Gentile background (or African, Latino, Asian, etc. modern) is not proof of multiple gospels. The OT is foundational to NT understanding, including Paul's gospel. Biblical theology shows that Petrine, Johannine, Pauline thought relating to the NT gospel/Christ is complementary, not contradictory. MAD proof texts and foists a paradigm on selective passages, but it does not establish itself with exegesis or a solid overview of all the inspired, unified NT. Peter does refer to Jewish issues because this was the target audience. You fail to see how Christological/soteriological his message is, just like Paul's. I will not go down the road of STP and say Peter was only talking about who Jesus is (gospel of God?) vs Paul who talked about what Jesus did (gospel of Christ?). This is odd thinking considering the gospel of Peter/Paul must include truths about who He is (Messiah, God, Savior, Lord, etc.) and what He did (work of cross which is past tense for Peter and Paul with nothing changing upon Paul's conversion and call to preach this common gospel).

One of us is thick as a brick (Tull )

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Paul clearly later states that rather than through the blessing of Israel, we are saved through their fall.

Jesus said, salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22). He is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2). The Israel we must concern ourselves with is Jesus, for Christ Jesus is Israel according to scripture.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

There is an Israel of the flesh (apostate) and an Israel of God (true). That is why Paul tells his audience:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The Israel of God is Christ, and those Gentiles who received Him are in Christ, hence they are in the Israel of God. That is why Paul tells his audience:

Eph 2:12,19 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

From my perspective, based on the scriptures, all those who are in Christ are fellowcitizens of Israel. Therefore, in that sense, the Gentiles have come to God through Israel.

I don't have the time or inclination to argue about this, but offer it here because you said you welcomed my opinion. Ultimately what matters is that we are saved by grace through faith alone, something I know we agree on.

[SaulToPaul]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Wow. Godrulz can use lots of words without saying much, can't he?

A lot of religious rhetoric designed to make himself sound learned & authoritative without actually addressing any issues.

[andyc]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Warning to the Pentecostals! The Holy Hebrew Scriptures are about to be shown.

You can quote scripture, but your interpretations are always MAD.

Genesis 12:1-3

Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 13:14-17

And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

How is it that most of this land no longer belongs to the descendants of Israel?
The Hebrew word that has been translated forever, can also mean a long period of time. The spiritual Canaan is heaven, from where the Messiah came to redeem his spiritual children.


Genesis 17:1-15

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Are you faithfully preaching circumcision as an everlasting covenant?

This is the promise of circumcision. God reveals more as time progresses,

Ah, I see, you allow for some alterations, but only where it suits you.

as he seems to always do. After the release from bondage, his prophet Moses delivered the law. (through Aaron)

Foreigners that come and bless Israel, and are circumcised, are a part of the promise, as clearly laid out by God.

Still?

Try to interpret the old testament in the light of the new.