[TeeJay]

Town Heretic, I asked you if God hates the wicked? You answered, "Enough to die for them." But to make this cute little meaningless statement, you have to ignore: Prov. 23:27; Ps. 5:5; Ps. 5:6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 34:16; Ps. 45:7; Ps. 139:20-22; Ho. 9:13; Lev. 26:27-30 2 Chron. 19:2 among many other similar passages. So, you would rather ignore God and what he thinks just to disagree with me. What have I ever done to you that would engender such anamosity? I have done nothing except to quote God?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

[TeeJay]

Zeena, It's no use quoting Scripture to Rusha. Rusha does not believe God exists. So if no God exists, then there can be no word of God for Rusha. Rusha must first be convinced that there is a Creator God that exists. Which I can do without using the word of God. I pray that she will except my challenge.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

[Zeena]

Originally Posted by Tom From Mabank

Zeena, It's no use quoting Scripture to Rusha. Rusha does not believe God exists. So if no God exists, then there can be no word of God for Rusha.

And Who is the One to do the convincing?

1 Kings 18:41
And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain.

John 4:35-38
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by Tom From Mabank

Town Heretic, I asked you if God hates the wicked?

You actually asked me several questions, but you chose the one you must have thought you could make hay with and are curiously silent on the others, which provided context for the one you took up. Ah, well.

You answered, "Enough to die for them." But to make this cute little meaningless statement,

If you want to classify a description of the passion as cute and meaningless, that's your call.

you have to ignore: Prov. 23:27; Ps. 5:5; Ps. 5:6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 34:16; Ps. 45:7; Ps. 139:20-22; Ho. 9:13; Lev. 26:27-30 2 Chron. 19:2 among many other similar passages.

Not at all. You're simply ignoring my earlier writing on point. But if you want a scripture off... 1 John 4:8; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:7-11; John 3:16...I'm sure we could both keep setting out examples of God's attitude toward evil and men who entertain it, but only one of us appears to miss the fact that God in His righteousness must hate what God in His love extends mercy and grace to redeem through the sacrifice of Christ. I am not God and so, rather than spend myself in an imperfect attempt at hatred I concentrate myself in gratitude toward as perfect an expression of love as I am capable.

So, you would rather ignore God and what he thinks just to disagree with me.

I get that you're feeling righteous. I touched on that. I'm not arguing with God or His practice; I'm arguing with you over yours.

What have I ever done to you that would engender such anamosity?

So, you tell me I'm the sort of Christian who misleads others...that I must be ignoring God...and I'm the one with a temperamental difficulty? As in so much, you assume what you will within the context you need to make the point you came to the moment I failed to nod my head in agreement.

I have done nothing except to quote God?

Oh, you've done a great deal more than that...and the devil himself can quote scripture....and no, Tom, I don't think you're the devil.

[WizardofOz]

I am happy to say that I hate no one nor do I feel compelled to do so.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Alate_One

You're arguing that its a good idea to hate PEOPLE. I do not forgive a BROTHER that does not repent, but a person that isn't a Christian? Sure.

Are you suggesting you're better than God? God hates all workers of iniquity, and He doesn't forgive those who have not repented.

Says the guy that thinks it is good to hate people and not forgive them unless they repent. I don't know what kind of wacky version of churches your lot belong to but if you read through this thread the atheists and agnostics get it better than you do!

So you think David was wrong? Psalm 139:19-22

You are driving people away from Christ with your attitude which is so far from Christ-like I really can't comprehend where you've gotten it from.

I'm telling people why they need Christ. If you just tell them they need Christ without telling them why they aren't going to listen to you.

Jesus did.

When and where?

Is that not a good enough reason for you?

You are either an idiot or a liar if you think Jesus ever did such a thing.

The "other side" in this thread is arguing that Christians should HATE those that do evil, but Christ tells us there is no reward for hating your enemies and loving your friends. Even Pagans do that. We are called to a higher standard.

one of us ever said anything about not loving our enemies. We should certainly love them. If we do not love those who do evil then we let them go to Hell, and that's a sin.

You and the others are proof texting in the extreme. You're using this one verse, poetry I might add, to argue against the very words of Christ.

Show me how I am arguing against the words of Christ. Go ahead.

And what difference does it make that it's poetry?

We receive and repent at the same time, there's no "I repent first so I can make myself good enough to receive Christ".

I never said anything about making yourself good enough. There's no such thing.

Now, when does God forgive those who do not repent?

Have you ever seen Les Miserables or read the book? If you haven't, you need to.

I know, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."

[TeeJay]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

You actually asked me several questions, but you chose the one you must have thought you could make hay with and are curiously silent on the others, which provided context for the one you took up. Ah, well.

If you want to classify a description of the passion as cute and meaningless, that's your call.

Not at all. You're simply ignoring my earlier writing on point. But if you want a scripture off... 1 John 4:8; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:7-11; John 3:16...I'm sure we could both keep setting out examples of God's attitude toward evil and men who entertain it, but only one of us appears to miss the fact that God in His righteousness must hate what God in His love extends mercy and grace to redeem through the sacrifice of Christ. I am not God and so, rather than spend myself in an imperfect attempt at hatred I concentrate myself in gratitude toward as perfect an expression of love as I am capable.

I get that you're feeling righteous. I touched on that. I'm not arguing with God or His practice; I'm arguing with you over yours.

So, you tell me I'm the sort of Christian who misleads others...that I must be ignoring God...and I'm the one with a temperamental difficulty? As in so much, you assume what you will within the context you need to make the point you came to the moment I failed to nod my head in agreement.

Oh, you've done a great deal more than that...and the devil himself can quote scripture....and no, Tom, I don't think you're the devil.

The reason I did not answer your first question is I did not want to hurt your feelings. I really did not understand what in the world you're trying to say. I thought perhaps FreeLight wrote it. Your first sentence: There's no should absent his repentance and inclusion in the body. What in the world does that mean?

I will answer the rest of your post in the morning. It's late and I'm tired.

I asked you does God hate the wicked? I gave you an abundance of Scriptre to show that He does. Why couldn't you just answer yes? Why did you have to ignore the Scripture and argue with me?

[Alate_One]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Are you suggesting you're better than God?

God sent his Son to DIE for those that hated him. I don't think I'm approaching that in any way. I really don't know why you would think that.

Just tell me what denomination you're in.

God hates all workers of iniquity, and He doesn't forgive those who have not repented.

Except when he died for them. And except for the fact that God is love . . . I mean other than that. No, He doesn't let the unrepentant into heaven. Just as we should not let the unrepentant into Christian fellowship.

So you think David was wrong? Psalm 139:19-22

I doubt the Psalmist was interested in distinguishing the actions from the person since that doesn't make good poetry. I hate the evil that is done, but I hope for the salvation of the evildoer.

I'm telling people why they need Christ. If you just tell them they need Christ without telling them why they aren't going to listen to you.

Well of course. . . .you don't forgive someone by telling them they didn't do anything wrong. *I* forgive them for wronging me and because God has forgiven my sins. I don't have the right, as a servant, to hold a grudge against another.

God is perfect and thus, has that right, though He chose to extend mercy to all through Christ while we hated God.

Matthew 18

Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

They must get right with God to be saved and forgiven by God.

When and where?

Luke 23

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing

Mark 2

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

You are either an idiot or a liar if you think Jesus ever did such a thing.

You're incapable of reading scripture then aren't you?

one of us ever said anything about not loving our enemies. We should certainly love them. If we do not love those who do evil then we let them go to Hell, and that's a sin.

Its not within our power to MAKE someone become a Christian. I can certainly give them the gospel but there's nothing on my or your part about "letting them go to Hell".

And what difference does it make that it's poetry?

It shouldn't be read as literally or strictly as direct statements from Christ or Paul's letters. QED- I wouldn't base the core of my theology on them.

Now, when does God forgive those who do not repent?

The forgiveness of salvation comes along with repentance.

I know, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."

That's "A Tale of Two Cities", Go watch the Les Miserables movie at least . . . .

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by Alate_One

God sent his Son to DIE for those that hated him. I don't think I'm approaching that in any way. I really don't know why you would think that.

He sent Him to die for those He hated, because He loved them so much. And yet He does not forgive those who do not repent. So what makes you different than God that you can forgive them?

Just tell me what denomination you're in.

I'm not in a denomination. My affiliation is the same as Damascus Road Bible Fellowship and Denver Bible Church.

Except when he died for them. And except for the fact that God is love . . . I mean other than that. No, He doesn't let the unrepentant into heaven. Just as we should not let the unrepentant into Christian fellowship.

His dying for them was not His forgiving them. And how does the fact that God is love mean He forgives those who do not repent? That's just asinine.

I doubt the Psalmist was interested in distinguishing the actions from the person since that doesn't make good poetry. I hate the evil that is done, but I hope for the salvation of the evildoer.

And I don't hope for their salvation?

Well of course. . . .you don't forgive someone by telling them they didn't do anything wrong. *I* forgive them for wronging me and because God has forgiven my sins. I don't have the right, as a servant, to hold a grudge against another.

First off, who said anything about holding grudges?

And if you forgive someone if they don't already understand they did wrong how are they supposed to understand it? How are they supposed to understand that what they have done is bad? they must first understand they have done wrong before you forgive them. And if they truly understand that they they repent. How do you know they understand if they do not repent?

God is perfect and thus, has that right, though He chose to extend mercy to all through Christ while we hated God.

And? You think this makes a difference? We have been commanded to forgive those who repent. Where are we given the freedom to forgive those who do not?

Matthew 18




They must get right with God to be saved and forgiven by God.

How does one get right with God? And why don't they need to make it right with you to receive your forgiveness?

Luke 23

I've already answered this one. They truly believed they were executing a guilty man. They had no reason to repent.

Mark 2

They had faith, meaning they were repentant.

You're incapable of reading scripture then aren't you?

Seriously? That's your argument?

Its not within our power to MAKE someone become a Christian. I can certainly give them the gospel but there's nothing on my or your part about "letting them go to Hell".

If we have not done all that is within our power to keep them from going then we have let them go. I never said we sent them there, I only said we let them go. Just as if we do not stop our children from running out into the street.

It shouldn't be read as literally or strictly as direct statements from Christ or Paul's letters. i.e. I wouldn't base the core of my theology on them.

So David, a man after God's own heart, shouldn't be taken literally? You're an idiot.

The forgiveness of salvation comes along with repentance.

All forgiveness should come with repentance.

That's "A Tale of Two Cities", Go watch the Les Miserables movie at least . . . .

Oh yeah. I took drama in high school and there was a lot of talk about both, I got them mixed up. I don't like musicals.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by Tom From Mabank

The reason I did not answer your first question is I did not want to hurt your feelings.

Surely. Your reputation for sensitivity is nearly legendary at this point, I'd think. But why should your reading comprehension level be a source of grief for me?

Let's see what you found so insufficiently prosaic...

I thought perhaps FreeLight wrote it. Your first sentence: There's no should absent his repentance and inclusion in the body. What in the world does that mean?

No, my first sentence was, "Completely up to her." Pretty wild grammar. Exotic even. Now, for the second sentence, meant to further explain the straight forward answer you apparently forgot (so I'm darned if I do or don't reduce to the monosyllabic with you, practically) place emphasis on the word should as you read it aloud. Presumably you understand the reference to the body of which you are a part. In plainer English, we aren't compelled to forgive those who aren't in the body of Christ and are if they are and seek it.

I will answer the rest of your post in the morning. It's late and I'm tired.

Here's most of the rest, with explanation, just to jump the gun a bit for you.

In any event, her forgiveness has nothing to do with his salvation absent its example working to alter his perception of mercy, just as her condemnation would have been to no account unless it worked a change in him born of fear in judgment.

What she does does not determine anything other than how she feels about him unless it alters him by observing her example in love. Similarly, a stern or unforgiving stance might work that change.

Some men, I suspect, have chosen the evil they find themselves in so throughly that they will never see their way out of it.

McVeigh had a hardened heart, had rejected God to the point where he wasn't going to repent and believed himself justified.

McVeigh's own words paint him as such a man. So whatever she said to him, I hope that it helped her in her pain, because it could not reach him in his.

I can't think of a way to simplify this for you, so I hope you didn't have difficulty with it.

I asked you does God hate the wicked? I gave you an abundance of Scriptre to show that He does. Why couldn't you just answer yes?

Because it would be half an answer and while that doubtless satisfies whatever it is in your spirit that lives for judging others, it would be neither a complete nor honest answer.

Why did you have to ignore the Scripture and argue with me?

In order, I didn't argue with God or scripture, quoting a bit of it myself...and, as to the last, because I found your approach to that grandmother/victim repugnant, presumptive, a bit arrogant and suspiciously self righteous in tone.

Bless your heart.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by Tom From Mabank

Does God hate the wicked?

Define Godly "hate".

Hopefully you will end up with something like:

A withholding by His own purposes, of His preferences or favor towards the sinner, thereby leaving the sinner to his onward and rebellious march towards Hell undisturbed.

Words like "hate" and "love" carry quite a bit of human baggage, wherein we humans are given over to passions, such as "I hate his guts". See here for more to contemplate.

AMR

[Alate_One]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

He sent Him to die for those He hated, because He loved them so much. And yet He does not forgive those who do not repent. So what makes you different than God that you can forgive them?

I am not God. I am not holy, I cannot righteously hold anyone accountable for their actions because I am as much a sinner as they are! I wouldn't sacrifice something so precious as offspring for them.

His dying for them was not His forgiving them. And how does the fact that God is love mean He forgives those who do not repent? That's just asinine.

I didn't say he forgives those who do not repent but He is offering salvation and forgiveness to those that have not repented. And its not the repenting that saves them, it is the acceptance of the gift of God. Repentance is evidence they've understood.

And I don't hope for their salvation?

I didn't say you didn't but if you HATE them in the human sense, how can you?

First off, who said anything about holding grudges?

Not forgiving someone that has wronged you is holding a grudge.

And if you forgive someone if they don't already understand they did wrong how are they supposed to understand it? How are they supposed to understand that what they have done is bad?

Obviously you'd explain to them why it was wrong. You really have some whacked out concept of forgiveness too. But there are some that will refuse to accept that they were wrong. They are blinded to their own sin. Is it right for me to maintain anger and hatred towards this person? If I maintain hatred it is MY spirit that will be damaged. Hate is not a fruit of the spirit.

they must first understand they have done wrong before you forgive them. And if they truly understand that they they repent. How do you know they understand if they do not repent?

Some may recognize what they did as evil but simply not care. Not everyone is going to repent. You're not living in the real world if you think that.

And? You think this makes a difference? We have been commanded to forgive those who repent. Where are we given the freedom to forgive those who do not?

Hello! Do good to those that hate and persecute you? Do you think I can do that if I haven't forgiven them and still HATE them?

How does one get right with God?

Receive God's gift of forgiveness and repent.

And why don't they need to make it right with you to receive your forgiveness?

Because, as a human being, hate destroys me. As an imperfect human being I can't ask perfection of another. God's ways are not our ways. We can't do things "because God does them". That's faulty logic. God isn't a sinful creature of flesh and blood as we are. Christ IS God in human flesh, therefore we follow HIS example of a perfect human life. Where does Christ say that he hates the evildoers?

I've already answered this one. They truly believed they were executing a guilty man. They had no reason to repent.

you don't think if they treated even a guilty man that way they would have to repent? Secondly, even if you commit a sin unaware, you are not innocent of that sin. They would still need to repent.

They had faith, meaning they were repentant.

That's funny, I don't know any verses that say faith=repentance. Its highly unlikely he understood the full extent of his sins when Jesus said what he did.

If we have not done all that is within our power to keep them from going then we have let them go. I never said we sent them there, I only said we let them go. Just as if we do not stop our children from running out into the street.

YOU can't STOP them! You give them the gospel, its God's work to bring them the rest of the way.

So David, a man after God's own heart, shouldn't be taken literally? You're an idiot.

You mean the guy that repeatedly lied, committed adultery and murder? He's just as flawed as the rest of us, and I think he's giving his opinion in that Psalm. Plus it isn't MEANT to be a detailed explanation of doctrine. Its poetry and you should respect that genre.

All forgiveness should come with repentance.

We would hope. But sometimes the forgiveness comes first and sparks repentance. I repay their evil actions with good that I heap burning coals on their heads that may bring them to repentance. If you simply hate them, why would they see you as any different than any other evildoer?

Oh yeah. I took drama in high school and there was a lot of talk about both, I got them mixed up. I don't like musicals.

Les Miserables does come in a musical form, but the movie version isn't a musical. Stop complaining and just go watch the thing.

[TeeJay]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

You actually asked me several questions, but you chose the one you must have thought you could make hay with and are curiously silent on the others, which provided context for the one you took up. Ah, well.

If you want to classify a description of the passion as cute and meaningless, that's your call.

Not at all. You're simply ignoring my earlier writing on point. But if you want a scripture off... 1 John 4:8; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:7-11; John 3:16...I'm sure we could both keep setting out examples of God's attitude toward evil and men who entertain it, but only one of us appears to miss the fact that God in His righteousness must hate what God in His love extends mercy and grace to redeem through the sacrifice of Christ. I am not God and so, rather than spend myself in an imperfect attempt at hatred I concentrate myself in gratitude toward as perfect an expression of love as I am capable.

I get that you're feeling righteous. I touched on that. I'm not arguing with God or His practice; I'm arguing with you over yours.

So, you tell me I'm the sort of Christian who misleads others...that I must be ignoring God...and I'm the one with a temperamental difficulty? As in so much, you assume what you will within the context you need to make the point you came to the moment I failed to nod my head in agreement.

Oh, you've done a great deal more than that...and the devil himself can quote scripture....and no, Tom, I don't think you're the devil.

Town Heretic,

You quoted the Sermon on the Mount, which most do, and specifically Mat. 5:44. I will asnwer and show you that the Sermon on the Mount can't be used as an argument and that most Christians have a misunderstanding of what Jesus taught.

But first:

You can't separate sin from the sinner: "As a man thinks in his heart, SO IS HE" (Prov. 23:7)

"God HATES all WORKERS of iniquity" (Ps. 5:5).

"The Lord ABHORS the bloodthirsty and deceitful MAN" (Ps. 5:6).

"The WICKED and the ONE WHO loves violence [God] HATES" (Ps. 11:5).

"The face of the LORD is AGAINST THOSE WHO do evil" (Ps. 34:16).

"God LOVES RIGHTEOUSNESS and HATES WICKEDNESS" (Ps. 45:7).

"The LORD HATES a HEART that devises wicked plans, a FASLE WITNESS, ONE WHO sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19).

God reminds us, "All wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I HATED THEM. Because of the evil of THEIR DEEDS I will drive them from My house; I will LOVE THEM NO MORE" (Ho. 9:13).

And Moses wrote of God: "If you do not obey ME, MY SOUL shall ABHOR YOU" (Lev. 26:27-30).

Then there is hypocritical love: God warns, "Should you LOVE THOSE WHO HATE the LORD? Therefore the WRATH of the LORD is upon YOU" (2 Chr. 19:2)

Paul also warns of hypocritical love: "Let your LOVE be without hypocracy. ABHOR what is EVIL..." (Rom. 12:9).

Now, I've made it easy for you. In light of the above passages (I can give more), can you admit that God HATES wicked humans? I'll make it easier--multiple choice even:

A. Yes.
B. No.
C. I rather not answer.

I really want you to answer!

I pray that Knight leaves his up for an extra day?

I have an appointment this morning. This afternoon I will show you your misunderstanding of the Sermon on the Mount.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

[Knight]

Originally Posted by Tom From Mabank

Town Heretic,

You quoted the Sermon on the Mount, which most do, and specifically Mat. 5:44. I will asnwer and show you that the Sermon on the Mount can't be used as an argument and that most Christians have a misunderstanding of what Jesus taught.

But first:

You can't separate sin from the sinner: "As a man thinks in his heart, SO IS HE" (Prov. 23:7)

"God HATES all WORKERS of iniquity" (Ps. 5:5).

"The Lord ABHORS the bloodthirsty and deceitful MAN" (Ps. 5:6).

"The WICKED and the ONE WHO loves violence [God] HATES" (Ps. 11:5).

"The face of the LORD is AGAINST THOSE WHO do evil" (Ps. 34:16).

"God LOVES RIGHTEOUSNESS and HATES WICKEDNESS" (Ps. 45:7).

"The LORD HATES a HEART that devises wicked plans, a FASLE WITNESS, ONE WHO sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19).

God reminds us, "All wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I HATED THEM. Because of the evil of THEIR DEEDS I will drive them from My house; I will LOVE THEM NO MORE" (Ho. 9:13).

And Moses wrote of God: "If you do not obey ME, MY SOUL shall ABHOR YOU" (Lev. 26:27-30).

Then there is hypocritical love: God warns, "Should you LOVE THOSE WHO HATE the LORD? Therefore the WRATH of the LORD is upon YOU" (2 Chr. 19:2)

Paul also warns of hypocritical love: "Let your LOVE be without hypocracy. ABHOR what is EVIL..." (Rom. 12:9).

Now, I've made it easy for you. In light of the above passages (I can give more), can you admit that God HATES wicked humans? I'll make it easier--multiple choice even:

A. Yes.
B. No.
C. I rather not answer.

I really want you to answer!

I pray that Knight leaves his up for an extra day?

I have an appointment this morning. This afternoon I will show you your misunderstanding of the Sermon on the Mount.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

Fantastic post!

POTD

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by Knight

Fantastic post!

POTD

And it would be positively devastating to someone attempting to suggest that God doesn't hate sin or those who practice it. Maybe someone should help him find that person so he can feel really, really good about the whole judgment song and dance he apparently derives a great deal of satisfaction from.

The debt Christ forgave me fills me with gratitude and the desire to forgive and to by word and example steer others to that same grace. There is no scripture that rejects this and the cross upholds it, as we were ALL condemned by the law and yet God loved us and set his example in the sacrifice of Christ. Tom was wrong in his attack on that grandmother. He remains so.

I would rather speak of what men should embrace than what they should reject, what they should run toward than what they should flee, but to do one is not to deny the other...cannot reasonably be seen as such, in fact.

But not all men are reasoned or reasonable.