[Knight]

Originally Posted by Hilston

A Dingo Ate Your Baby. The similarities between Claire and Danielle Rousseau are numerous. Their Sheena-of-the-Jungle sense of couture, their stockpiling of dynamite, their willingness to kill without remorse or hesitation, their setting of traps and torturing of captives, and, perhaps most significantly, their obsessive pursuit of their lost children.

Early in the series when Locke is being dragged by the smoke monster Jack and Kate save him by dropping dynamite into the smoke monsters hole (personally I always thought that scene was a bit cheesy) but maybe there is a reason that the smoke monster would be "scared off" by dynamite? Maybe they showed us that awkward scene intentionally and maybe that's why crazy island ladies collect dynamite?

But was Rousseau friends with smokie as Claire seems to be?

Both Claire and Rousseau seem to be paranoid and think everyone else might "infected" yet all indication is that they are the ones that might be "infected".

I don't know..... my head hurts

[The Graphite]

It has been stated before on the show that for people to go back to the island, they need to recreate the circumstances of the last trip there in some meaningful, symbolic way.

And now we are looking at a bunch of candidates, and at least one person being "replaced" on the island. But... what if more than one person is can/should be replaced?

"It's good to see you out of those chains, Richard."
Kate arrived on the island in chains.

Dogen is skilled at healing others using herbal remedies.
Jack is a healer, but also notable is Sun, who has demonstrated specifically a knowledge of healing using herbs.

Smokey (aka the Locke-ness Monster) is an ultimate cynic who seeks to manipulate others for his own gain. Sound like anyone? Sawyer is a prime candidate for him.

Claire has clearly become the new Rousseau.

Locke already replaced Ben as leader of the others - a mysterious and esoteric leader who stands apart from those he leads.

A lot of the characters have characteristics (no pun intended) of people who were already on the island when they arrived, and some of them are already moving into position (or have even already moved into position) to replace those individuals in the island's ongoing series of dramas and tragedies.

Is this island cursed to perpetually have a healer, a paranoid jungle lady who lost her baby, a dark and cynical manipulator, a person formerly in chains who now advises the leadership of others, etc.? Is this a never-ending drama of characters, with its perpetual roles being filled with new "candidates?"

This isn't a complete or comprehensive theory; I'm just exploring ideas, here.

[Knight]

Hmmmm... very interesting thoughts indeed!

[zoo22]

Originally Posted by The Graphite

You may have missed where I also posted that I certainly do not believe they would actually, clearly equate Jack (or anyone) with Jesus.

I didn't miss that. I don't believe they would either, but I also don't believe he (or anyone) is really meant to.

I certainly may be wrong.

Some folks believe Locke represents Jesus. Or Jacob represents Jesus. Or Christian represents Jesus. I've read Hurley represents Jesus. That Aaron represents Jesus. That [female] Jin-Soo represents Jesus.

There are obviously many things about Jack that relate in various ways, to various extents, to Jesus... Shephard, 23, Father=Christian, Dr., rib wound, David, etcetc. I believe some are intended and meaningful, some not so much. But I don't buy the Jack-as-Jesus theories. Primarily, he's just too damaged. Too many personal issues he needs to come to grips with. He's a confused, angry mess half the time.

But I also don't buy any of X-as-Jesus theories, or any of the theories that boil down to religion, period (I understand you are not saying such). Many religions, to an extent (obviously many are incorporated). One, no. And nothing as powerful as having a specific Jesus character. However, as said, I see that Jack incorporates a lot of Jesus similarities. And I also think he and the Shephards are intended as a stronger representation towards Christianity than most other characters/storylines are. Particularly (I believe), Jack's own grappling with faith.

Again, I certainly may be wrong.

The writers have such a wealth to draw on for material from religions, mythologies, philosophies, sciences and history. I mean, they can go through any religion and come up with so many perfect (accurate or misleading) clues and symbols and stories that mirror and deepen and further their themes... destiny/freewill, good/evil, us/them, black/white/light/dark, lead/follow, faith, redemption ... We've been grappling with all of it since the beginning of time. Or well, since we had a real self-aware, contemplative consciousness.

Originally Posted by The Graphite

My point, which you clearly missed, was that all of the candidates I listed have names that relate to kings, or at least the idea of kings or national leaders.

I didn't miss that either. I agree that many of the names are specifically meant to represent kings. I don't believe that all of the "candidate" names are meant to.

Originally Posted by The Graphite

Several of them have names that literally or almost literally mean "king." And the "Shephard" who is a great physician, who makes the lame to walk, and whose number arguably refers to the most famous psalm ever, Psalm 23, which begins with a reference to the most famous "shepherd' of all time, and that individual also being considered a "king."

I already posted that I can't imagine the writers or producers actually, openly equating Jack with Jesus, directly. Rather, my theory was just that the names seem to have been engineered to allude to kings in general.

Now you can add a possible David to your list... But also may need to find a way to incorporate king Austin?

Originally Posted by The Graphite

The weakest one, in retrospect, I think is "Ford." The best I could come up with was an American president who many consider to be a failure, a loser and a screw-up... which actually fits Sawyer. But, at the same time, keep in mind that when they first wrote the character and his name into the very beginning of the show, they intended to kill him off within a few episodes, therefore his name can't have been chosen to fit this theory, even if the theory itself is sound regarding the rest of the names.

The name-game in LOST can be very frustrating. Fun but frustrating.

I believe Sawyer/Jack Ford mostly comes from Jack Ford, who was a US "civic leader" and also a pirate.

Originally Posted by The Graphite

And yes, I know they originally planned to kill Jack early on the show and make Kate the leader of the survivors. However, it's my understanding that they changed their mind about that before the first episode was completed. That decision was changed early enough to allow for Jack to be a part of my theory.

I read a great interview with Josh Holloway about three years ago, or so, in which he talked about how he took the role knowing they would kill the character off within four or five episodes, but he believed the character could be so much more, so he decided to go on the set every day and act his butt off, put in every bit of effort he could, and pretty soon he convinced the producers to keep the character for the long-term. He created that character, and he's been a fan favorite ever since.

I've read similar. He's really done an amazing job.

Yeah, I think they made that decision very quickly. I've always thought it significant that they opened on Jack's eye. But I think there was enough lead time in changes for them to wrangle it into something more significant than it may have been. Or of course, maybe it's not significant at all.

As far as Jack the character goes, I've become pretty tired of him doing things like, say, impulsively smashing all of the magic mirrors in a magic lighthouse after being led there by a magical, dead, time-traveling, invisible demi-god. Hm. Who was it way back in the first episode that gave a speech about stepping back and counting to five when fear/confusion set in?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by zoo22

As far as Jack the character goes, I've become pretty tired of him doing things like, say, impulsively smashing all of the magic mirrors in a magic lighthouse after being led there by a magical, dead, time-traveling, invisible demi-god. Hm. Who was it way back in the first episode that gave a speech about stepping back and counting to five when fear/confusion set in?

I agree. There we were, sitting on the edge of our seats, possibly on the verge of getting some great answers with all those numbers and reflections and he decides to have a hissy fit and ruins it! What a stinkin' baby!!





I'm gonna go collect some dynamite!

[The Graphite]

Originally Posted by zoo22

There are obviously many things about Jack that relate in various ways, to various extents, to Jesus... Shepard, 23, Father=Christian, Dr., rib wound, David, etcetc. I believe some are intended and meaningful, some not so much. But I don't buy the Jack-as-Jesus theories. For one thing, he's just too damaged. Too may personal issues he needs to come to grips with. He's a confused, angry mess half the time.

I didn't say that I like the fact the symbolism and the connection...

I agree Jack is messed up, has "too many issues." However, just because you don't like the symbolism or connection doesn't mean that it isn't what the writers are doing. In fact, recently, the producers stated publicly that the names of the characters DO mean something, especially Jack's. (And your comment about the wound in the side was amazingly observant; I never even thought of that!)

Face it; the writers probably aren't Christian-friendly, or at least they aren't in touch with a Christian perspective. They are very secular. So, it seems pretty clear they are using numerous layers of symbolism to tie Jack to Jesus Christ. We may not like it... but I think at this point it's pretty hard to deny. And many candidates having names meaning "king," with Jack being the "king of kings."

I certainly agree that Ford is probably the weakest part of my theory.

[The Graphite]

Originally Posted by Poly

I'm gonna go collect some dynamite!

Should be plenty to go around. It looked like Claire had more dynamite than you can shake a stick a... *KERPOW!*

[zoo22]

Originally Posted by Poly

I agree. There we were, sitting on the edge of our seats, possibly on the verge of getting some great answers with all those numbers and reflections and he decides to have a hissy fit and ruins it! What a stinkin' baby!!





I'm gonna go collect some dynamite!

I think in that shot of him sitting on the bluff looking out at the ocean, he must have been thinking, "Wow, that was REALLY stupid. ... And I did it with millions of people watching me."

[zoo22]

Originally Posted by The Graphite

I didn't say that I like the fact the symbolism and the connection...

I agree Jack is messed up, has "too many issues." However, just because you don't like the symbolism or connection doesn't mean that it isn't what the writers are doing. In fact, recently, the producers stated publicly that the names of the characters DO mean something, especially Jack's. (And your comment about the wound in the side was amazingly observant; I never even thought of that!)

Face it; the writers probably aren't Christian-friendly, or at least they aren't in touch with a Christian perspective. They are very secular. So, it seems pretty clear they are using numerous layers of symbolism to tie Jack to Jesus Christ. We may not like it... but I think at this point it's pretty hard to deny. And many candidates having names meaning "king," with Jack being the "king of kings."

I'm going to have to think about it more. I've been so dead-set against it that maybe I need to reexamine.

Originally Posted by The Graphite

I certainly agree that Ford is probably the weakest part of my theory.

It's funny, with so many LOST theories there's a really strong element at center, but some bits kind of have to be squeezed in sideways to make it full.

I think there are many different theories that'll wind up being very accurate, but in parts. I think a lot of cross-over theories will wind up as accurate.

I have some ideas. I'm hoping to have it hashed myself out mid-season. Right around when I think Ben will die. But like I said, nothing nearly as concise as Knight's Twilight Zone theory.

[The Graphite]

Whoa... leave it to a dispensationalist to notice something like this.

The series is parenthetical to some degree. Not exactly but roughly so. We've already noticed that the episodes in this season mirror the order of the episodes in the first season. Even the focus of each episode is the same. Kate-centric episode... a Locke one... then a Jack one... and next a Sun/Jin one... So, this season is mirroring the first season. But, guess what? It goes beyond that, but nobody noticed.

What happened in the second season?

• They found their way to the hatch. They argued over whether to do something (push the button) in the hatch.
• They explored a lot of the various hatches and locations of Dharma.
• Several of the survivors are taken prisoner by the Others and stay with them for a while in one of the Dharma locations. They are gone from the survivors camp for nearly 3 weeks.
• Sawyer gets possession of all of the guns.
• And they also dealt with another group of survivors who crashed elsewhere on the island, a group which included a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Anna Lucia), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Eko), and also a quiet and charming guy (Bernard).
• Ben (aka Henry Gale) is tortured by Sayid and held captive by the survivors, but one of the survivors betrays the rest by risking everything to rescue Ben, even though he knows Ben is the leader of the Others and is responsible for many terrible things
• The season ended with a lot of arguing over whether to push the button, and finally they don't push the button, and BOOM!

What happened in the 5th season?

• Well... Several of the survivors went to the Dharma village, where they lived for three years among the Dharma people, going around to a lot of the Dharma hatches and locations.
• Sawyer is put in charge of the guns (he becomes the Dharma sheriff.)
• Back in 1977, a young Ben is shot by Sayid. Jack and others refuse to help Ben, but another survivor takes it upon herself to kidnap (capture) Ben and risk everything to rescue him, even knowing he will be the leader of the Others and will be responsible for many terrible things.
• We also met some more survivors from a crash on another part the island, including a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Ilana), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Bram), and also a quiet and charming guy (Caesar).
• And our main cast members found their way to (what would be the) hatch, where they argued over whether to use the modern technology to counteract the island's dangerous "energy." And then "pushed the button" and blew it up (or actually, it imploded, just like the hatch did in Season 2).

The series is very roughly parenthetical!

It is becoming increasingly apparent that this island takes to the extreme the concept of "history repeats itself." People who come here are cursed to repeat the same scenarios again and again. Sometimes, people come to the island and replace other individuals, taking over their roles in these ongoing and repeating dramas. Locke replaced Ben, Claire replaced Rousseau, etc. As the adversary cynically pointed out, the same thing(s) happen every time. History repeats itself to the extreme on this island, on and on, with no end in sight.

And, no, I haven't even begun to investigate whether Season 4 mirrors Season 3. But certainly I see a lot of strong parallels between 6 & 1..... and 5 & 2. More on this later.


P.S. I just submitted this theory to Theories On Lost blog.

[The Graphite]

Actually, here's a better way of looking at the parallels, rather than separating them so much. This is how I presented it at the Lost Theories website.


TWO: The survivors explored a lot of the various hatches and locations of Dharma. Several of the survivors are taken prisoner by the Others and stay with them for a while in one of the Dharma locations. They are gone from the survivors camp for nearly 3 weeks.
FIVE: Some of the survivors went to the Dharma village, where they lived for 3 years among the Dharma people, going around to a lot of the Dharma hatches and locations.

TWO: And they also dealt with another group of survivors who crashed elsewhere on the island, a group which included a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Anna Lucia), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Eko), and also a quiet and charming guy (Bernard).
FIVE: We also met some more survivors from a crash on another part the island, including a darkly cynical woman who is experienced with guns (Ilana), a large husky brute of a guy who has a hidden softer side (Bram), and also a quiet and charming guy (Caesar).

TWO: Sawyer gets possession of all of the guns.
FIVE: Sawyer is put in charge of the guns (he becomes the Dharma sheriff)

TWO: Ben (aka Henry Gale) is tortured by Sayid and held captive by Jack and other survivors, but one of the survivors betrays the rest by risking everything to rescue Ben, even though he knows Ben is the leader of the Others and is responsible for many terrible things
FIVE: A young Ben is shot by Sayid. Jack and others refuse to help Ben, but another survivor takes it upon herself to risk everything to rescue young Ben, even knowing he will be the leader of the Others and will be responsible for many terrible things.

TWO: They found their way to the hatch. They argued over whether to do something (push the button) in the hatch. The season ended with a lot of arguing over whether to push the button, and finally they don't push the button, and BOOM!
FIVE: They found their way to (what would be) the hatch, where they argued over whether to use some modern technology (bomb) to counteract the island's dangerous "energy." And then "pushed the button" and blew it up (or more accurately, it imploded, just like the hatch did in Season 2).

[The Graphite]

Originally Posted by zoo22

Graphite: Interesting. I don't think it's as crisp as you're presenting it, but I do agree. The two most accurate/pointing things IMO from your two above posts that I'm paying attention to this season are simply: "mirrors" and "parallels."

Think of all the mirrors since the season started (besides the obvious lighthouse mirrors): Jack on the plane seeing blood on his neck (was it actually there? we didn't see); Locke looking at himself in the mirror right before making a firm decision not to call Jack for a consult and beginning to accept his paralysis; Kate in front of a mirror (though she only gave a glance) before connecting with Claire's belongings and going to return them to her; Jack becoming confused as he looks at his appendectomy scar in the mirror... I haven't seen tonight's episode. But otherwise, there have been mirrors playing a role in all of them so far this season.

The biggest symbolic "parallel" I've noticed so far were the ladders to/from the cave. Of course I could have made that symbolism up in my mind. Bt consider that [f]Locke could have let Sawyer die right there when he fell if he wanted. But he pulled him over to one of the other ladders. Were those parallel ladders odd to anyone else?

But less obscurely, I think we'll start seeing more parallels (& results/consequences) showing up between the island and the current LA landing... And increasingly, things that happen in LA that show up on the island (rather than the more already apparent vice-versa) ... I think things that happen in "the past" in LA will show up in on the Island. In the current time frame we're looking at this season (the "future"), and also the island time frame(s) we saw in the first seasons. Weird forward/backward loops. Like Locke telling Helen that he's alright (when he fell from his wheelchair onto the lawn in LA), just as he'd very oddly said to Kate in season one "I'm alright Helen, I just got the wind knocked out of me" when he got knocked over by a boar on the island and became discombobulated. Or like in past seasons, when we've seen slightly different versions of the same thing ... As Charlie playing music on the street in London and the rain starting to fall, in two different episodes/scenes, each just slightly different (besides that Desmond was in one and not the other)... He was facing a different way, there were different people, etc. But it was obviously the same day/scenario. But I think those LA/island parallels will become increasingly profound, eventually moving to life/death scenarios. Maybe they'll shift from different timeline scenarios we've seen (50's, 70's, 2000's).

"Past" effecting "future," but also, "future" effecting "past." I put them in quotes because I'm not sure if they're happening simultaneously.

Anyway, that's as far as I've gone out on a limb regarding time on LOST.

Looking forward to seeing tonights show (tomorrow). I expect people to begin dying.

Dude, wow, great call on the mirrors, I totally agree!

Second, the influence of the ALT world creeping into the minds of the people on the island, I have seen other theories which have pointed this out. Guess what? Here's a freaky one...

I can't remember when, but I think in Season 1 later on, Sawyer is ill and Kate is with him, and he asks her why she killed him. Delirium? What a strange thing to write into the story. "Why did you kill me?" he asks Kate. Errhhhh??? Will we see Kate kill Sawyer? Tune in to find out!

[zoo22]

Originally Posted by The Graphite

Dude, wow, great call on the mirrors, I totally agree!

Well, I just watched the new episode, and didn't see any mirrors...

Originally Posted by The Graphite

Second, the influence of the ALT world creeping into the minds of the people on the island, I have seen other theories which have pointed this out.

Guess what? Here's a freaky one...

I can't remember when, but I think in Season 1 later on, Sawyer is ill and Kate is with him, and he asks her why she killed him. Delirium? What a strange thing to write into the story. "Why did you kill me?" he asks Kate. Errhhhh??? Will we see Kate kill Sawyer? Tune in to find out!

I'd thought he was channeling Kate's father/stepfather. But yeah, that's definitely one of those odd crossover moments. In that case, it seemed a voice from the dead, but maybe it was Sawyer... From some other timeline.

This most recent episode didn't give me any new ideas (yet anyway) ... Though I wasn't entirely convinced that there was a cut & dry evil, and I am more inclined to believe that now. I'm still not convinced of who it is though... I'm still not convinced that Jacob's good and MIB's bad. And I'm still not convinced that Smokey is one-sided, or only equated with MIB. It just doesn't make sense to me that MIB would have Smokey, and Jacob wouldn't have the same or something similar.

I'm looking forward to Desmond's return. He'd explain things sometimes.

[Knight]

Jack smashing the mirrors has evoked a very strong response from just about everyone I meet. Usually I am the only guy to defend Jack. I say... if you found a "peep hole" into your life that has caused your entire existence to be a torturous tragedy you might smash the mirrors as well.

I'm guessing the show producers are chuckling to themselves knowing how frustrated they made everyone.

[GuySmiley]

Originally Posted by Knight

Jack smashing the mirrors has evoked a very strong response from just about everyone I meet. Usually I am the only guy to defend Jack. I say... if you found a "peep hole" into your life that has caused your entire existence to be a torturous tragedy you might smash the mirrors as well.

I'm guessing the show producers are chuckling to themselves knowing how frustrated they made everyone.

Jack smashing the mirrors is another example of a problem I think the entire series has had. When given an opportunity to learn more about the island, the flight 815 survivors just never seem that interested. With Jack at the lighthouse, I'd think he may check out the names by the degree markers more, or he might have turned the mirror to different people names to see what the mirror would show for them. And of course why not turn it to 108 like Jacob said to see what happened.

But in other situations, they never seem to check things out or ask the right questions. I can only remember a couple but I've felt this from season 2 on. When Sawyer and Kate escape from the other island, and they have Ben's daughter's boyfriend with them, they dont ask any questions.

The reason is obvious, the writers dont have them ask questions because they don't want to give out the info But it drives me nuts, and its not realistic.