[renegade]

Are we born sinners?

[Psa 51:5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language is figurative.

So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin.

[Psa 51:7] Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

[Psa 58:3] The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Also we would have to take literaly that babies speak from the very moment they are born.


The very fact that Jesus was a man, descended from Adam, and born with a human nature as we are, shows that men are not born with a sinful nature. Sin is not a substance. It has no physical properties and cannot possibly be passed on physically from one person to another.

[1 John 3:4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

It cannot be a substance because choice and substance are contradictory.The word sin describes the character of an act as being wicked or wrong.
Is it possible that the infinitely just God could cause men to be born sinners and condemn them to hell for the sin of Adam?

Most people are ignorant of the fact that it had its roots in a heathen philosophy, and that it was made a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church in the 5th century A.D.

[Sonrise]

Then how do you answer these scriptures renegade?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[godrulz]

Flesh is a metaphor for sin. Ren is correct that sin is volitional, not a substance nor genetic.

Talk to me, Ren. Where did you get these ideas? I agree and have been scorned for holding your view.

Ps. 51 is a Hebraism, not a didactic, wooden literalism.

Have you heard of Charles G. Finney? He agrees with us.

How about this helpful link?

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

[chair]

Originally Posted by renegade

Most people are ignorant of the fact that it had its roots in a heathen philosophy, and that it was made a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church in the 5th century A.D.

Do you have sources for this?

Thanks

[andyc]

People are born with a tendency to disregard the moral law and justify themselves in the process. If this is not a sinful nature, what is it?

We are all born ignorant of the knowledge of sin, but when our conscience kicks in, our sinful heart responds.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

[renegade]

Originally Posted by Sonrise

Then how do you answer these scriptures renegade?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul uses language in these texts that appears to teach the doctrine of a sinful, physical constitution. But the language that Paul uses is not literal; it is figurative. When the Apostle speaks of the flesh in the sense of being sinful, he is never speaking of the flesh in its literal or physical sense.

For when we were in the flesh... Rom. 7:5

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom. 8:8

But ye are not in the flesh. Rom. 8:9

Paul teaches in these verses that the Christian is no longer "in the flesh." When Paul spoke of the "flesh" in the sense of sin, he was not referring to the physical flesh because if he were, the only way that we could no longer be "in the flesh" would be to no longer be in the body. He was teaching that they were no longer living to gratify their fleshly desires.

Paul uses the word "flesh" to mean something very different from the physical flesh. He uses it to speak of the sinful condition of men who are completely given over to worldly and fleshly desires. And the fact that he uses the word "flesh" to speak of a past state for the Christian, telling the Christian that he is no longer "in the flesh," shows that he is not speaking of the "flesh" in its literal, physical sense.

Paul did not condemn the flesh of man. He did not in any way condemn the physical nature of man. This is evident because he thought of our Lord Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, as a real man with human flesh. He believed in the resurrection and a life in the body afterwards. He taught that the body of man is properly the temple of the Holy Ghost, and that the body is an offering acceptable and holy to God when consecrated to his service. He taught, also, that the body is an instrument of righteousness for the Christian, and finally, he said that those who are now new creatures in Christ Jesus are no longer "in the flesh," making us understand that when he condemned the flesh and spoke of it in a derogatory way, he was not speaking of the physical flesh.

[Squeaky]

CRUCIFY EMOTIONS & FEELINGS (FLESH)
John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Mark 8:35
35 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:5-8
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
2 Tim 2:4
4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
Matt 5:29-30
29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matt 22:16
16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.
Rev 2:11
11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'
Luke 14:33
33 "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
Matt 19:27-29
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?"
28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Mark 10:30
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
Heb 12:24-29
24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
(NKJ)
xxxTo crucify the flesh(emotions & feelings) is to resist until they leave you. Some you might have to resist for awhile, but others could take a few years. The outer person consists of your feelings and emotions(unclean spirits). The inner man consists of affections from your soul. Your inner man is your spirit and soul. Your spirit is the mind of your inner man, your soul is the body of your inner man where your affections are.

James 1:4
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
(KJV)

1 Tim 6:7-8
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
(NKJ)

Rom 12:1-3
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
(NKJ)

[Squeaky]

[quote=renegade;2252979]Are we born sinners?

[Psa 51:5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language is figurative.

I said
Sense Adam everyone inherits unclean spirits(emotions) from their fathers. The only one who never inherited unclean spirits was Jesus because of who His Father was. In most cases flesh is emotions.

Deut 5:9
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
(NKJ)

[renegade]

Originally Posted by chair

Do you have sources for this?

Thanks

Aurelius Augustinus [more commonly "St. Augustine of Hippo," often simply "Augustine"] (354-430 C.E.): rhetor, Christian Neoplatonist, North African Bishop, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church. One of the decisive developments in the western philosophical tradition was the eventually widespread merging of the Greek philosophical tradition and the Judeo-Christian religious and scriptural traditions. Augustine is one of the main figures through and by whom this merging was accomplished. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/augustine/



Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin


Understanding Roman Catholicism
by Rick Jones
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp

[renegade]

Originally Posted by Squeaky

I said
Sense Adam everyone inherits unclean spirits(emotions) from their fathers. The only one who never inherited unclean spirits was Jesus because of who His Father was. In most cases flesh is emotions.

(NKJ)

The following texts show that we are created in the image and likeness of God, and therefore with a good and upright nature:

[Gen 1:26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[Gen 1:27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[Gen 9:6] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
[1 Cor 11:7] For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
[James 3:9] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.


The statements in the last three texts were made after the death of Adam, so they refute the teaching that men after Adam are not created in the image of God. If we believe that these texts teach that God has created us in his image and if we believe that it is impossible for God to create men with sinful natures, then we must believe that these texts are teaching that God has created man upright and that man has sinned in spite of an upright nature.


God has created man upright and without sin. He has created man in his own image and likeness with sensibility, intellect, reason, conscience, and free will. Man has all the faculties and powers of moral agency. He knows right from wrong. The law of God is written in his heart. He is free and knows himself to be free and able to obey the law of God. His conscience approves his right conduct and condemns his wrong conduct.

All men, everywhere, have these same moral faculties and powers. A heathen man may be ignorant and primitive, but the law of God is written in his heart. His conscience approves his right conduct and condemns his wrong conduct. He has the same moral consciousness of a standard of right and wrong as any man who knows the Bible:

[Rom 2:14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[Rom 2:15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

[firon]

Read Romans 5:12-21.

[Scarlet]

Originally Posted by andyc

"our sinful heart responds."

I agree. We are born in Adam and therefore in sin.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by firon

Read Romans 5:12-21.

The Overstreet link deals with this passage. The key is to distinguish physical, spiritual, eternal death, and moral vs physical depravity.

Rom. 1-3 is a harmartiological (doctrine of sin passage). It does not support 'original sin' (if we sin because we are sinners, we could not help it any more than our hair color and we would not be morally responsible; we are sinners because we sin).

Apart from a couple proof texts out of context, 'original sin' is Augustinian tradition (he had personal struggles with his bondage to sin even after conversion), not biblical truth (many more verses show sin as lawlessness, rebellion, volitional-mental, disobedience, selfishness, etc.; we form a nature as we sin; we do not sin because of a causative Adamic nature back of our will). The doctrine is not needed to explain why all eventually sin. It also supports the idea that babies don't go to hell and do not need the RC sacrament of infant baptism.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Scarlet

I agree. We are born in Adam and therefore in sin.

I want the car back you won for being pre-trib. (Revelation thread).

We have physical depravity because we are born in Adam. Moral depravity comes from our own misuse of mind/will following in his footsteps.

We cannot blame it on Adam, Satan, parents. The soul that sins is the one who dies (Ezek.).

[andyc]

Originally Posted by godrulz

We have physical depravity because we are born in Adam. Moral depravity comes from our own misuse of mind/will following in his footsteps.

We cannot blame it on Adam, Satan, parents. The soul that sins is the one who dies (Ezek.).

We cannot blame our choices on Adam, because each of us have a conscience that never defends evil, but in our heart we seek to justify sin in spite of our conscience, and this is a tendency we are born with.
So, although I agree that that we are not totally depraved in the flesh, we are born with a heart that justifies sin.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?