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Reload this Page Primitive Christianity Revived - by William Whiston
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Primitive Christianity Revived - by William Whiston - February 20th, 2010, 12:30 PM

Well my new book series is already paying off - as it led me to this guy, William Whiston, and his work Primitive Christianity Revived.

He wrote his work in 1711, and basically he held that Christianity was originally Arian (my own position) and that the trinity developed in the early church! While I don't worry too much about others approving my theological ideas, it's always nice to see that I'm not alone and I'm not the first.

As soon as I finish my current reading list I'm gonna get this work. Has anyone else read it?





If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
   
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February 20th, 2010, 02:01 PM

... ___ ...





......

Last edited by yeshuaslavejeff; May 21st, 2010 at 05:34 AM..
   
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February 20th, 2010, 02:04 PM

Never heard of it. I looked it up on Amazon and there's also a book by that name written by William Penn.





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February 20th, 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuaslavejeff View Post
hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. ...
originally arses! ... no, not originally.. but MAYbe by 3rd or 5th or 7th .. century.
....just like yes 'the trinity developed' (was made up/brought in by/from pagan)...
nay, anyone who learns the history of the people chosen by the Creator learns much, and, if they listen, learn, and obey, they may even live.
The trinity was developed. In fact, it was a minority view at the beginning of the 3rd century - rejected by the majority (who were modalists) as polytheism.

While the Arian debate was in the early 4th century, there were several early Christian sects which held that Jesus was not God. Paul's writings certaintly favor Jesus as not being God (example: I Cor 15:20-28). The Ebionites of the first century held that he was a man. Theodotians of the 2nd century did as well. And, of course, since trinitarianism hadn't developed yet - all sects of Christianity till the late second century were not trinitarians.





If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
   
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February 20th, 2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
Never heard of it. I looked it up on Amazon and there's also a book by that name written by William Penn.
It takes a while to find, but it is on Amazon. Do a search by author.

I couldn't find it on other sites though - it's not a very popular read





If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
   
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February 20th, 2010, 02:11 PM

Found it on Barnes and Noble: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Pri...illiam+Whiston





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February 20th, 2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
From Ignatius to Ploycarp
'...and expect HIM, WHO IS ABOVE ALL TIME, ETERNAL, INVISIBLE, THOUGH FOR OUR SAKES MADE VISIBLE; IMPALPABLE, AND IMPASSABLE, YET FOR US SUBJECTED TO SUFFERINGS; enduring all manner of ways for our salvation.'

These were men trained under the apostles, modalists, not arians.

http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/Oneness/q201-210.htm

http://m.sooperarticles.com/spiritua...nts-12762.html

http://mikeblume.com/early.htm



   
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February 20th, 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
Well my new book series is already paying off - as it led me to this guy, William Whiston, and his work Primitive Christianity Revived.

He wrote his work in 1711, and basically he held that Christianity was originally Arian (my own position) and that the trinity developed in the early church! While I don't worry too much about others approving my theological ideas, it's always nice to see that I'm not alone and I'm not the first.

As soon as I finish my current reading list I'm gonna get this work. Has anyone else read it?
No, but that's not true. The Early Fathers like Paul and St. Melito were Trinitarians.

Primitive Christianity was Catholicism, as anyone can see from the Scriptures and the writings of the 100s, 200s, 300s, etc.

May we all return to this Primitive, Biblical Christianity.



   
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February 20th, 2010, 03:09 PM

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Originally Posted by patricius79 View Post
No, but that's not true. The Early Fathers like Paul and St. Melito were Trinitarians.

Primitive Christianity was Catholicism, as anyone can see from the Scriptures and the writings of the 100s, 200s, 300s, etc.

May we all return to this Primitive, Biblical Christianity.
They weren't trinitarian, the trinitrian doctrine came about from men mudering each other in man made councils to make Rome stronger.

Trust in Jesus, not man made councils who put Him in second place and take glory from Him.

If you have 3 husbands, you are a harlot. Wash your robe clean and believe He alone is God and Savior!



   
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February 20th, 2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by patricius79 View Post
No, but that's not true. The Early Fathers like Paul and St. Melito were Trinitarians.

Primitive Christianity was Catholicism, as anyone can see from the Scriptures and the writings of the 100s, 200s, 300s, etc.

May we all return to this Primitive, Biblical Christianity.
Oh ya - cause Paul wrote that Jesus was one of the three personages of God, correct?





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February 20th, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Dillon View Post
From Ignatius to Ploycarp
'...and expect HIM, WHO IS ABOVE ALL TIME, ETERNAL, INVISIBLE, THOUGH FOR OUR SAKES MADE VISIBLE; IMPALPABLE, AND IMPASSABLE, YET FOR US SUBJECTED TO SUFFERINGS; enduring all manner of ways for our salvation.'

These were men trained under the apostles, modalists, not arians.

http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/Oneness/q201-210.htm

http://m.sooperarticles.com/spiritua...nts-12762.html

http://mikeblume.com/early.htm
The Ignatius writings are untrustworthy. Over half are considered complete forgeries, and the rest have clearly been tampered with.

The writing you are quoting in particular has 3 different versions (all of which I have in front of me). There is a short version, a long version, and a Syriac Version.

Also, what is the chapter and verse of that quote? I tried to find it, but didn't see it. Your site says chapter 1 verse 15, but it doesn't exist :P

But I do agree with you that Modalism is a much more historic position than the trinity





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Lightbulb as the world turns................ - February 20th, 2010, 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy View Post

The trinity was developed. In fact, it was a minority view at the beginning of the 3rd century - rejected by the majority (who were modalists) as polytheism.

While the Arian debate was in the early 4th century, there were several early Christian sects which held that Jesus was not God. Paul's writings certaintly favor Jesus as not being God (example: I Cor 15:20-28). The Ebionites of the first century held that he was a man. Theodotians of the 2nd century did as well. And, of course, since trinitarianism hadn't developed yet - all sects of Christianity till the late second century were not trinitarians.

Well of course

Historical Arian Christianity

Unitarian Christianity

The pool from which Christianity sprang was essentially Unit-arian in orientation, yet 'morphed' from adapations from pagan/gentile schools allowing for the 'metaphysical justifications' of a 'Trinity', which is no problem for me really, since God is still One no matter how we differentiate or com-prehend any 'conception' of 'God'.

The whole debate with Arius and Athanasius is more convoluted with so many intricate details over 'doctrine' and 'metaphysics' that it dovetails into so many 'trails'. In any case,....I'm more 'Arian' in some perspectives and not a big fan of Athanasius and his 'creed-politics'l. Jesus takes on his own life and significance in the early Jewish groups(Ebionites, Nazarenes, followers of the Way, Essenes) and more liberal offshoots (Gnostics) - all of these and more derivitives were subject to evolution.


pj



   
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February 20th, 2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
The Ignatius writings are untrustworthy. Over half are considered complete forgeries, and the rest have clearly been tampered with.

The writing you are quoting in particular has 3 different versions (all of which I have in front of me). There is a short version, a long version, and a Syriac Version.

Also, what is the chapter and verse of that quote? I tried to find it, but didn't see it. Your site says chapter 1 verse 15, but it doesn't exist :P

But I do agree with you that Modalism is a much more historic position than the trinity


Hey my man, some have it in chapter 3.



   
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February 20th, 2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Dillon View Post
Hey my man, some have it in chapter 3.
Yep it was in chapter 3 - thanks

At any rate, as I said, the Ignatius writings aren't very trustworthy. Even if it is a valid writing, it would only show that Ignatius was a early modalist, not that the church as a whole was modalist.

If you read I Clement, it is very Pauline in nature and holds Christ as the Son of God. He maintains that Christ is under God and sent by God.
The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God.

Polycarp also maintains the separation between Christ and God in his epistle to the Philippians -
But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, and purity
I need to find it - but there was another early work that I read just the other day which says something along the lines of: don't be surprised that God has a Son.





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February 20th, 2010, 07:00 PM

Interesting. There's no doubting the Arians were more authentic believers in the original teachings that were held in the first few centuries of Jesus' (pbuh) message. The trinity is quite obviously out of step with the entire Bible, and is a very polytheistic and idolatrous concept, which has it's origins in Ancient Egypt and Babylonia, transferred through the Pagan Romans & Greeks.

The Arian Christians in Spain also converted quickly to Islam when it arrived, realising it was the same basic message as the unitarian Christianity they'd been clinging onto for so long in a sea of trinitarianism. This interaction is detailed quite thoroughly in Ahmad Thompson's Islam in Andalus, showing how unitarian Christianity (Arianism) had survived to some extent in the lands that eventually came under the rule of Islam (North Africa & Iberian Peninsula) and that this was why Islam spread so rapidly in them, because the people there already held very similar beliefs to Islam.





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