[Kevin]

Dan 37,

Keven, what work are you going to add to the finished work of the cross?

Show me what I added. Everything I said is backed with scripture, so don't tell me that I added something when I didn't. You are simply unable to grasp the simple but true fact that God does indeed require us to do something.

The fallacy of your arguement is only highlighted by the fact that you didn't answer my questions. Dead faith, which is faith by itself, doesn't save anybody. You know it, and I know it, but your pride will not allow you to admit it.

To me there is no works without faith.

Look around you. All you have to do is find an atheist who does good works. There are people in the world who don't believe in God, yet are very nice people who go out of their way to help people. They are doing works, yet they have no faith in God.

Faith produces work and is not a perfecting agent.

Huh? I don't understand what you are trying to get at here.

Works are a natural outflow of faith.

If it's a faith that is alive to God, yes, I agree.

Faith is not a natural outflow of work.

I agree, what's your point? Where did I say it was? All I've been saying is that faith without works is dead.

Why do you keep insisting on the ridiculous?

I'm not insisting on anything that is rediculous. Did the apostle James say that faith without works is dead? Well? Yes he did. That's what I'm saying as well. How is that rediculous? Are you ever going to address my questions?

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Evangelion
c.moore -



Try "Virtually all of them."

You mean the one that fit your doctrine I didn`t answer?

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by dan37

I. Faith produces work and is not a perfecting agent.

May bad. my brain out ran my fingers. Stupid statement. thanks for pointing it out.

What should have been said is "Faith produces work and work is not a profecting agent."

When I gave the teaching on Eph 2 What part of that teaching is not clear to you, Kevin.

[Kevin]

Dan37,

What should have been said is "Faith produces work and work is not a profecting agent."

Works are not a perfecting agent of faith? Sorry, but that's just not true at all. Observe:

James 2:22
22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Works perfects faith indeed.

When I gave the teaching on Eph 2 What part of that teaching is not clear to you, Kevin.

I've already agreed with you that we are indeed saved by grace through faith. We just disagree what kind of faith that is being spoken of here. You think it's faith only, which the Bible teaches is a dead faith. I think it's faith with works of obedience to Christ's commandments. I never claimed that works saves us. It's faith that saves us, but it's not a dead faith unto it's own.

Can you give me some honest answers to my points and questions that I posed to you earlier?

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,

I said:
Very simple?!!!! The new testament is the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins and without it there is no grace.

Your response:
Correct. But Christ was sacrificed once, for all. There is no more need for sacrifice. We are covered by this single sacrifice, and now find salvation through grace.

My reply:
Grace is not possible without faith in the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins. If you truly had faith in His blood you would have the knowledge to understand the power of God to forgive sins without water baptism.

You said:
My learning is the result of knowledge.

My reply:
Who's knowledge?

I said:
The obedience of your flesh will profit you nothing.

Your response:
In other words, you couldn't refute my argument, so you decided to fall back on insults. *sigh*

My reply:
Your opinion is worthless for it lacks discernment. Christ said "the flesh profiteth nothing" in reference to the new testament for remission. Do you disagree with His words?

You said:
Here, read this and let me know what you think it is saying:

Matthew 21:28-32.
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


I John 5:2-4.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


You can also throw in the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, and the parable of the sheep and goats.

My reply:
What's your interpretation and how does it apply to water baptism?

I said:
If you add your obedience for salvation then you have voided the "free" gift.

Your response:
No, I have actually obeyed Christ.

My reply:
No you have not. What does "free" mean to you?

You said:
Can you tell me how we might be saved without obeying Christ? Can you tell me that?

My reply:
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:33 (KJV)

... go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. Mark 10:21 (KJV)

Have you obeyed as did the church at Pentecost?

You said:
Obedience to Christ does not count as a "work."

My reply:
So then, is this obedience you're referring to a righteous work?

You said:
When Paul refers to "works", he refers to the works of the Law of Moses. Your entire argument is based on a false equivocation.

My reply:
Reading into scriptures words that are clearly not there is not allowed. "Works of the law" does not specifically refer to the law of Moses.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom. 4:2 (KJV)

Your point is works=works of the law of Moses? Is that right?

In Christ
Craig

[Apollos]

With the exception of a true Calvinist, everyone I have ever studied with believes that man must DO something to obtain the salvation that God offers to man by His grace. We know this because, although God’s grace is extended to ALL men, we know not ALL men will be saved.

What is the difference between the saved ones and the lost ones? Faith !! But this can not be defined as “belief only” if we keep to a scriptural definition.

I find “faith” or “belief” typically used as a comprehensive word in scripture involving more than just a mental “assent” in facts. Does it not indicate to the readers here that “faith” involves an understanding or acknowledgement of facts along with a trust and confidence placed in those facts that have come to be known? And as such does this then not become that “faith” which the Hebrew writer proclaims as the faith which is “unto the saving of the soul” ??

Also, no one I have studied with believes in “faith (believe) only”. So I ask, does anyone really believe in “faith (belief) only” ?? Does repentance play a part in a man coming to the point of salvation? If so, “faith (believe) only” will not work for you. Is confession required? If so, “faith” only does not exist!

Now what of Romans 10:10 – “…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” It seems Paul includes confession of Jesus as Lord an integral part of coming to salvation, just as much as repentance is in Romans and other passages. Where is this in Romans ??

Paul presents the actuality of repentance in Romans 6:

Verse – 1 Do not continue in sin that grace may abound.
Verse – 2 How can we continue to sin if we died in respect to sin?
Verse – 6 Our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away.

Repentance and confession are taught by Paul !! This debunks the notion that Paul suggests “faith (belief) only” in the book of Romans.

(Of course Paul goes on to say that after the old sinful man is crucified, that the dead body of sin must be buried in water baptism. I present it here only to say that Paul ALSO states the necessity of water baptism, and as such, is a tenet of a “saving faith” also !!!)
<<<<>>>>

In regards to Ephesians 2:8ff, it is speaking of salvation! Look at the passage…

“For by grace have you been saved…” The topic is salvation!

The prepositional phrase “through faith” - modifies the direct object “saved”. This tells us HOW we have been saved – “through faith”. “Salvation” is not of ourselves, it is God’s gift.

This salvation is not accomplished by “boastful” works.

Please note: The salvation of Ephesians 2:8ff is not accomplished by BOASTFUL works. This does NOT eliminate other works – only boastful works!

Verse 10 clearly indicates there are “works” God prepared for the faithful to perform. There is absolutely NOTHING in this passage to dictate that these “WORKS” that God prepared for man to walk in cannot start BEFORE the point of salvation !!!

In fact, coming to “believe” is but the first “work” man must do to start toward coming to his point of salvation. Water baptism is the culmination of hearing the word, believing, repentance, confessing, and “washing” away their sins!!

In short, water baptism is the means (a work afore prepared by God) chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation God offers man by His grace !!!


Romans 6:17-18 – “But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were servants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”


“Obedience from the heart”, I believe, defines the ”only faith” that will save !! And this is NOT "faith only" !!!

[elected4ever]

We are saved through the faith of Christ Jesus only that has been imparted to us as a free gift. The faith that is human in nature is my faith and is differant than the faith of Christ. It is the faith of Christ that produces the fruit. Maybe this is the differance that is the point of contention. The faith of Christ is what produces the work of God and if that faith is absent then the work of God is also absent. So James says Show me the faith (of Christ) without work and I will show you the faith (of Christ) by it's production of work.

It is the nature of faith to produce work It is like geting wet with water. The water must be applied before one is wet. Likewise the faith of Christ must be applied be fore the works of God can be produced. This is the what James is talking about. A faith that does not produce is non existant just like being wet without water is non existant.

[c.moore]

Quote by Kevin

Works are not a perfecting agent of faith? Sorry, but that's just not true at all. Observe:

James 2:22
22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Works perfects faith indeed.

Quote c.moore
When I know , and have faith or belief that a chair will not break when I seat on it , of course I will put my faith to work by going to the chair and sit on it, because I first had belief, or faith "but" my seating on the chair did not make my faith.
I sat and worked to sit because I had faith, and the faith only gave me the confidence to do the work to sit.

I hope you understand that Kevin, and that where the understanding of faith only come in, but we do because we have faith .
We don`t put the cart before the horse, how about you?

Let God bless you

[c.moore]

We Love Jesus because He first love us, and we trust Jesus as our Father, and we believe in His words, and the blood of Jesus, and because we believe this make us have faith in Jesus.

So because of all this above what I wrote, is why we will do, his commands, and obey, because we trust , and have faith in Jesus even before doing anything, or obeying anything God says.

But we do not to gain salvation , or that we earn , or work for these things we trust in Jesus, but alone because we have the first love to Jesus alone, and this is why we obey, and get baptise, and do other things that please the Father, but the faith only is the main key that makes us want to do, but we don`t do to get faith.
We do get direction from the Word of God on how it should be done, to show our love , and get our faith build up by the hearing of the Word of God.
I read and study my bible because I want to know God more, but not to gain obedience, or do a command to know God by having, or a rule to read to get God attention.
Love , and the faith is the key.

remember Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for

It doesn`t say :Heb:11:1: Now faith is the WORKS of things hoped for


peace

[Apollos]

dan37 –

Ephesians 2:8ff tells us of grace and faith.

Grace is God’s part in man’s salvation – Faith is man’s part. It takes both for man to be saved and this passage clearly sets this out for our understanding. Salvation – the topic of the verse – requires both of these!

We can have faith IN Christ, but man does not have the faith OF Christ. Romans 10:17 tells us our faith comes from the word of God and this is the faith that man comes to have. This is not someone else’s faith. It is not “given” to us except as it is “developed” in us by the word!

You want to say that your “natural” human faith is something different. You will need some scripture that I haven’t read to support this thought. Do you have it??

It is just as James sets it out in 2:18 –“…show me YOUR faith… …I will show you MY faith…” James is not saying “the faith OF Christ” and this must be read into these passages. Faith is an individual matter produced from the word.

Once faith (or really “belief”) develops or grows to the point to bring an individual to action (“belief” and works), then and only then has he come to have the “faith” that is “unto the saving of the soul”.

The “faith” that saves is the “faith” that acts! This is what James is trying to get us to see.

[Evangelion]

Hope Of Glory -

Grace is not possible without faith in the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins.

Agreed.

If you truly had faith in His blood you would have the knowledge to understand the power of God to forgive sins without water baptism.

Show me where this is written in Scripture.

You said:
My learning is the result of knowledge.

My reply:
Who's knowledge?

God's knowledge - as revealed in His Word, the Bible.

Your opinion is worthless for it lacks discernment.

Empty assertion.

Christ said "the flesh profiteth nothing" in reference to the new testament for remission. Do you disagree with His words?

No, I do not disagree with his words. What's your point?

You said:
Here, read this and let me know what you think it is saying:

Matthew 21:28-32.
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


I John 5:2-4.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


You can also throw in the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, and the parable of the sheep and goats.

My reply:
What's your interpretation and how does it apply to water baptism?

Can't you guess? And why didn't you offer your interpretation, like I asked you to?

Please address these passages of Scripture. Then we'll talk.

I said:
If you add your obedience for salvation then you have voided the "free" gift.

Your response:
No, I have actually obeyed Christ.

My reply:
No you have not. What does "free" mean to you?

It means that I cannot earn my salvation. The necessity of obedience does not preclude the role of grace in salvation.

Here, read this:

• I John 5:2-4.
  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If you're not keeping God's commandments, you're not one of His children. If you're not one of His children, you're not going to be saved.

Very simple.

You said:
Can you tell me how we might be saved without obeying Christ? Can you tell me that?

My reply:
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:33 (KJV)

... go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. Mark 10:21 (KJV)

Have you obeyed as did the church at Pentecost?

None of this even comes close to answering my question. Please answer my question.

You said:
Obedience to Christ does not count as a "work."

My reply:
So then, is this obedience you're referring to a righteous work?

Yes, this obedience I am referring to is a righteous work. And a righteous work is not counted as a "work" in the sense of something which earns you something else. People were even permitted to perform righteous works on the Sabbath day. What does that tell you?

You said:
When Paul refers to "works", he refers to the works of the Law of Moses. Your entire argument is based on a false equivocation.

My reply:
Reading into scriptures words that are clearly not there is not allowed. "Works of the law" does not specifically refer to the law of Moses.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom. 4:2 (KJV)

Your point is works=works of the law of Moses? Is that right?

I should have been more specific. Paul does not always mean the Law of Moses - but most often, he does. In this case, he merely reminds us that Abraham did not earn his salvation, which is perfectly true.

Salvation is not an instant event. Salvation is something which comes as the result of a lifelong process.

[agape]

James is talking to born-again believers who were saved because they believed in Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed-one, the savior, the redeemer, the promised seed of Genesis 3:15.

The faith of Jesus Christ came by hearing the Word of God, which was hearing about Christ and all he accomplished for them through his life, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension and his now being seated at the right hand of God also signifying that "all is finished." Nothing more can be accomplished for man's salvation...not even water baptism. Jesus Christ did all the works necessary to save us and to give us eternal life. We received the gift of holy spirit thereby becoming righteous (Romans 10:9 and 10).

Today, all who believe regarding the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of holy spirit. All of us who are born again have the spirit of Christ in us and therefore spiritually we have Christ's belief within us – now it is up to our freedom of will to align our walk of faith accordingly.

James, in chapter 2, verse 1, was telling them not to have or hold the faith of Jesus Christ with respect of persons. Jesus Christ did not walk this way and neither are we.

James then shows them where they are not walking according to the faith of Jesus Christ in the following verses.

Within those verses, "can faith save" is also explained. Can your faith, without works or without literally showing compassion and mercy to those who come to you in need, make him/her whole? Can it save them? Not saved meaning to get born again, although preaching the gospel of the good news of salvation is part of putting one's faith in action. However, this is not the context from which James is teaching. He is teaching that they must utilize their faith; otherwise, there will be no profit or wholeness for anyone concerned.

They were saying "'Be warmed and filled" but without giving them the things needed for the body. Therefore, what does it profit?"

"faith, if it has no works, is dead." In other words, nothing will come of it.

This is not saying that their faith was dead, in the sense they did not have faith, but that their faith alone, meaining "without" works is dead...faith w/o putting it into action is dead...no life put to it, being "unprofitable." Big difference. Also, our faith cannot save or get someone born again. Salvation totally depends on the individual's faith in Christ as his/her Lord and Savior. They need to do Romans 10:9 and 10.

James 2 is NOT saying if you shew no works then you are not saved and born again. No one gets saved and born again by works (Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast). And, no one can "add" to salvation by works either. What James is basically saying is "hey your saved and born again, and have the life of God in you. You just don't stop there, but you move with the greatness of God's Word and put the life of God in you into operation. "

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [lifeless] being alone

So faith without works is dead...it is not "profitable."

Faith alone = salvation.
Faith + works = fruit, profit.
Faith minus works = no fruit, no profit and is dead, brings no life to one's faith.

Now there is no longer any contradictions and it fits with the doctrinal epistles that faith alone saves (salvation), but faith alone, without works, is unprofitable and bears no fruit.

Faith alone (in Christ) = salvation
Faith + works DOES NOT= salvation
Faith + works = putting one's faith into action and producing fruit.

James 1:22--But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jesus Christ put his faith or belief in God into operation. He did not just talk the walk, but he walked the talked. He demonstrated God's love, compassion and mercy to all who came to him with a need. Today, we as born-again Christians have this faith or belief of Jesus Christ spiritually living in us and therefore we are to put on the mind of Christ and become "living" sacrifices for God.

This I believe is the whole message of James, chapter 2.

[Kevin]

c.moore,

We don`t put the cart before the horse, how about you?

No, I don't. I know that faith comes first, but, if you don't act on that faith, that faith is useless. It's one thing to hear and believe the gospel. It's an entirely different thing to obey the gospel. Part of obeying the gospel is obeying the command of baptism.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for

Yup, but you can throw that hope right out the window if you don't obey His commands, which He expects us to do. I'm sure the people mentioned in Matt. 25:41-46 "hoped" for salvation also, but did they get it? No. Why? Because of their lack of works, which you agreed to.

I would still like you to explain how a dead faith saves since you agree that faith without works is dead. How does faith only save, being a dead faith?

[elected4ever]

Grace is God’s part in man’s salvation – Faith is man’s part. It takes both for man to be saved and this passage clearly sets this out for our understanding. Salvation – the topic of the verse – requires both of these!

We can have faith IN Christ, but man does not have the faith OF Christ. Romans 10:17 tells us our faith comes from the word of God and this is the faith that man comes to have. This is not someone else’s faith. It is not “given” to us except as it is “developed” in us by the word!

You want to say that your “natural” human faith is something different. You will need some scripture that I haven’t read to support this thought. Do you have it??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apolos
I read this post and my jaw droped. How can anyone who clames to be a christian say that the faith that Christ gives is none existant. What do you say to someone who denies the very basics of the faith? I will try again.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Again, Love is part of God's charactor. Grace is a part of God's chariactor. They are the parts of God's charactor that caused Him to provide a way of salvation for man. God's righteosness and holyness demands man also be righteous and holy in order for Him to have fellowship with man but man sined.

Romans 3:10 *As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 *There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 *They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 *Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 *Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 *Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 *Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 *And the way of peace have they not known:
18 *There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is the charactor of man. How can the faith of mortal man ever hope to achieve saving faith? Mortal man is opposed to God and seeks to justify his own righteouness bu his own means. Man in his own strength and will can never produce the the faith that it takes to save himself.

Romans 3:21 *But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 *Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 *For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 *Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Pay attention to verse 22. The righteousness of God is by the faith of Jesus. Not man's faith but Jesus' faith. Eph:2-8 says that faith is a gift from God and salvation is a product of God's grace. It must be that way because of what follows. Ephesians 2:9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast. If that isn't enough read this, Isaiah 64:6 *¶But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; If our rightousness as men are as filthy as the prophet Isiah said, What makes you think that that the work produced in the flesh can please God? Galatians 3:1 *¶O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 *This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 *Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 *Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apolos
Once faith (or really “belief”) develops or grows to the point to bring an individual to action (“belief” and works), then and only then has he come to have the “faith” that is “unto the saving of the soul”.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry that is not the testamony of scripture



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apolos
The “faith” that saves is the “faith” that acts! This is what James is trying to get us to see. which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.
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No that is not what James is trying to get us to see. What James is saying is that just because you say you have the faith that Christ gives is insuficent. All faith produces work; even human faith. That is the nature of faith. The faith that Christ gives produces after the the nature of the giver of the faith. The faith that Christ has given is indeed ours because He has given us of His faith and that faith will produce in us the work of Christ. That faith did not exist in us untell we received it from God.

Ephesians 2:10 *For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Kevin]

Dan37,

We are saved through the faith of Christ Jesus

Only if that faith is acted upon, yes.

The faith of Christ is what produces the work of God and if that faith is absent then the work of God is also absent.

I've already addressed how one can do good works without having faith. Address it.

This is the what James is talking about. A faith that does not produce is non existant just like being wet without water is non existant.

Please. Why would James exaplain something to them that is supposedly "nonexistant". I've already given you a Biblical example of people with faith in Christ yet did not do good works and were thrown into Hell because of it (Matt. 25:41-46). It doesn't do any good to debate you if you are going to continue to ignore the examples, points, and questions that are posed to you. Address them.