[agape]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If eternal life is not potential then death due to sin is not realistic.I believe it is for real ( Isaiah 59:1-2). Paul tells the Romans that sin has always been the cause of spiritual death, and will always be the case, even so grace will be present through righteousness as one goes forward to obtain eternal life.

Still wrongly dividing God's Word to MAKE IT FALSELY FIT YOUR THEORY. We have ALREADY OBTAINED ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST. John 5:13; "...We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." When we are saved and born again of God's incorruptible seed, there is no ifs, ands or buts...no guess work...works...WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN US. We DO NOT need to do anything to "obtain" eternal life...JESUS CHRIST DID IT FOR US. Praise God! You can NEVER obtain eternal life by works. I John 2:25 - "And this is THE PROMISE that HE HATH PROMISED US [EVEN] ETERNAL LIFE..

We ALREADY HAVE the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE because WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ALREADY ABIDING IN US.

I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE...CHRIST IS IN ME, THE HOPE OF GLORY. I see my future now in the present because I know the promise of God made to me, which is ETERNAL LIFE. I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

You are so off the Word of God, JAC...you teach the total opposite of the TRUTH...you teach a LIE.

Romans 5:16-21:
And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus Christ did what was required and necessary to make righteousness (justification) available for mankind, and thus God's grace may reign by means of righteousness resulting in eternal life by means of Jesus Christ our Lord and SAVIOR. Eternal LIFE - not death! This eternal life is holy spirit-life/seed in us which is available to men and women by means of Jesus Christ our Lord, (our Master).

Let's see some twisting of God's Word, which you so easily do.

All these that John spoke to have died physically, therefore, they did not have eternal life.

With that ridiculous statement shows a lack of knowledge, on your part, concerning the Scriptures. We have eternal life abiding in us. We are not, and obviously so, at this present time IMMORTAL. When Christ returns for his Church at the appointed time God has set forth, the dead in Christ will rise up first and PUT ON INCORRUPTION. Those who are still alive at Christ's coming for his Church will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. There is no debating concerning eternal life. We as born-again believes immediately put on immortality at his coming when we shall meet him IN THE AIR.

Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I Thessalonians 4:14-17:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We are ALREADY SPIRITUALLY SEATED with Christ in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:4-9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, "HATH" QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED) (6) AND "HATH" [PAST TENSE] RAISED [US] UP TOGETHER, AND MADE [US] TO SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS: (7) That in the AGES TO COME he might SHEW THE "EXCEEDING RICHES" OF HIS GRACE IN [HIS] KINDNESS TOWARD US "THROUGH" CHRIST JESUS. (8) FOR BY "GRACE" ARE YE "SAVED THROUGH FAITH;" AND THAT "NOT OF YOURSELVES" [it is] THE "GIFT" OF GOD. (9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Can God make it any more PLAIN to the born-again believer?? Open your eyes, JAC...there is so much you are missing out on!

Only Deity is eternal and this is what John refers to in 1 John 5:11.

I John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that [b]GOD "HATH GIVEN" TO US ETERNAL LIFE, and THIS LIFE IS "IN" HIS SON. (12) HE THAT HATH THE SON HATH LIFE; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.

Where's the so-called "only deity" is eternal?? I really don't know what you're talking about. I guess it's because you still keep making things up as you go.

If we continue in Christ, when we are raised we will not come into condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal. (John 5:24).

Again you have TWISTED THE SCRIPTURES AROUND TO SAY AND MEAN SOMETHING IT DOES NOT. You took the piece of puzzle called "works" and you try to fit it into the GRACE of God and you have distorted the Word of Truth.

Here is what John 5:24 is really saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, and BELIEVETH ON HIM that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; "BUT" is passed from death unto life.

Where does it say "IF" we continue in Christ?? AND where does it say "when we are raised from the dead"??? See how he makes up his own verses...like the puzzle game I had mentioned? He obviously twisted it around to make it work in his favor. It says he that hears and believes on Him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE., SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. Sounds like the verse is teaching that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE for we HAVE ALREADY, SPIRITUALLY, PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (ETERNAL). You subltly put in "IF" we continue in Christ. You purposely turned God's truth into a lie.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Here we go again, trying to fit in works for salvation and eternal life. So now we need to sow eternal life in order to reap eternal life? How ridiculous. How does one "sow and reap" eternal life? What was Jesus Christ all about? Have we forgotten about him. What about John 3:16? All we are required to do to receive eternal life is TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST. We already know from God's Word including all the scriptures I have quoted to you thus far, prove that the only means whereby we can have eternal life is THROUGH CHRIST. So how can anyone "sow eternal life"?? You need to think about these things, JAC.

All of us who are born again, have holy spirit-life within us, which is the spirit of Christ, which is eternal life. We are spiritually alive now, and in the future we will receive our spiritual bodies like the Lord Jesus Christ has already received from God. Any works we do into the spirit will remain, they will not be burned-up. If we sow "to the Spirit" in us, in manifestations, we will reap "life" everlasting. In other words, we will reap that which is incorruptible, will not burned.

You continue to try to use the Holy Spirit as the cleansing agent, but He is not. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ which takes place in the obedient act of being baptized for the remission of sins

It takes place by being baptized in holy spirit...not in the old symbolic outward cleansing of water baptism, which showed a baptism would be necessary to "receive" remission of sin--"For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence." The blood of Jesus cleansed us from our sins; however, to receive the cleansing inwardly, one must be born of Spirit, born from above. Why would Jesus tells Nicodemus this if it were not necessary?? The Scriptures make it plain that in order for one to enter into the Kingdom of God he must be born of the Spirit, which is an INWARD cleansing of sin which we received through the blood of Christ. When we are born from above, we receive a NEW NATURE, which is God's Spirit and which is eternal life spirit.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

Again, you are stating just the opposite of what this verse is saying. It is most definitely to be "baptized in the holy spirit." He is talking to the elect. Their election and salvation in accordance to the foreknowledge of the Father "Through the sanctification of the Spirit" which one can only receive by baptism in holy spirit. We are sanctified, MADE holy, set apart from the world to love and service God UNTO obedience (belief of the truth), sealed by the blood of Christ. (See Exodus 24:3-8)

II Thessalonians 2:13:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

?? The gift of the Holy Ghost IS to be baptized in the holy spirit!! He said AND BE BAPTIZED AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE "HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT."

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit).

It is referring to a spiritual INNER washing away of sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Definitely referring to BAPTIZED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

By Paul's believing of God's Word as he called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ he received God's gift of holy spirit by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. Note: there was no mention of physical water because physical water bathing, washing or immersion was not and still is not needed nor is it required because it does not wash away any sins since the moment that baptism with holy spirit was established on the day of Pentecost!

Not only does Christ declare that eternal life is to be received in the world to come

Only according to your private interpretation.

his apostles clearly taught it. Hear what Paul further told the Roman church..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

Again, according to your own private interpretation.

Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!

For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

The difference is very clear:

The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:

Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God

Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)

Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)

JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!

You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by agape
Again, according to your own private interpretation.

Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!

For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

The difference is very clear:

The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:

Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God

Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)

Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)

JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!

You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.

Evangelion said "Amen" . I thought we were dismissed.

JustAChristian

[agape]

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Evangelion said "Amen" . I thought we were dismissed.

JustAChristian

What a "COP OUT" JAC...couldn't handle the truth anymore...eh?

Evangelion might be your "god," but he certainly is not mine.

I'll take AMEN..."SO BE IT" from THE ONE AND ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Btw, Evangelion...all your thumbs up make you look kind of foolish since JAC has been PROVEN WRONG each and every time.

I think you both deserve a

[Evangelion]

Suit yourself, Agaoe. I've got at least three basic arguments in this thread which have yet to be challenged - and that's not even counting my proof texts.

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Suit yourself, Agaoe. I've got at least three basic arguments in this thread which have yet to be challenged - and that's not even counting my proof texts.

Proof text? Where? In your dreams only.

You have not proven a darn thing. Sorry, but The Truth always prevails and you have not shown one bit of truth thus far...only your private interpretation along with your servant, JAC!

PS: I would like to know what "works" you are doing in order to "really" be saved and receive eternal life in the future? This applies to you too, JAC?

[Kevin]

Agape,

Don't you have any depth, heart or insight to God's Word at all? Were you raised under strict "religious" teachings?

I have enough depth to know that God will not save the disobedient. God, Who does NOT change, has always expected man's obedience. There are plenty of examples in the Bible that show man's destruction when they don't obey God.

No one, and I mean absolutely no one was born again until the day of Pentecost.

Right! It happened in Acts 2:38 when they were baptized with water in the name of the Lord for the remission of their sins.

I Peter 1:23: gives a characteristic of Christ's seed which a person receives when he is born again.

Even though we have His seed in us after being reborn, we can still sin and separate ourselves from God's grace. We may still be His children, but disobedient children won't inherit the kingdom of God. Do you have a scripture that says that the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God?

I John 3:9:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John is not saying that one who who has been born again, cannot physically sin, as if it's impossible to do. Some good commentary on this:

""And so the word in our verse does not mean that the child of God has come to the place where he is physically unable to do any wrong, but that he is morally restrained from it, just as a good man who is asked to join another in some came would reply, ""O, no, I couldn't do anything like that." (E.M. Zerr, Bible Commentary, volume 6, p. 284 )"

To sum up, this passage is basically saying that one cannot live a life of sin and also abide in Christ, which is of course essential for salvation. The apostle John certainly shows that Christians CAN and DO sin in 1John 1:8-10.

1John 1:8-10
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Whoever is born of God must have God's seed in him. When the natural man is born again, the part of his being which he does not commit sin in is in the seed of God which is incorruptible. In his body and soul part, the flesh, he still commits sin.

Again, just because we have God's seed doesn't mean that we can't turn from Him and forsake Him. Those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I do see that you acknowledged that we do sin in that last part of that quote, but somehow, you don't think it has an effect upon our salvation. There's no scripture to support this.

Indeed, the apostle John goes on in chapter 2:4 that he who does not keep Jesus's commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them. He is saying this to people who have been born again with God's seed. And as I've said before, liars will not be in heaven.

The apstle continues in 2:17 and says that it is he who does the will of God that abides forever. By the way, how can you DO the will of God with faith ALONE ? Anyway, my point is that one who sins is not doing the will of God, and if you're not doing the will of God, you can forget about heaven.

I John 3:9 states that a born-again person cannot sin because he is born of God.

Already addressed. See above. With statements like this, it sounds like you are contradicting yourself when you acknowledged that we still sin. Do you or do you not believe that Christians can sin?

Eternal life becomes ours as body-and-soul men and women when we are born again of God's spirit.

I John 3:5:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

A classic baptism proof text! It is through baptism that we are born of the spirit.

One cannot enter into the Kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit, which is eternal-life spirit.

Agreed.

It cannot be taken away or destroyed. It's permanent.

Again, just because God's seed abides in us forever doesn't mean that He will accept the disobedient. The book of Galatians holds proof of this.

Galatians 1:6
6) I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

The significance of this verse is essential. Here, Paul is clearly rebuking the Galatian brethren for turning away from Him (being God), who called them into the grace of Christ, to a different gospel. One might try to argue that just because God called them into grace doesn't mean they accepted. But simple logic annihilates this assertion. How could one turn away from God if they weren't already with Him at one point? It's impossible. One cannot turn away from God without already having a relationship with Him first. So, by scripture and logic, these Galatian brethren were in the process of turning from God, who called them into the saving grace of Christ, which they did accept.

That being said, according to the theory of O.S.A.S., there is no way for these people, who had been called into the saving grace of Christ, to lose their salvation. Well, as I will now point out, the Galatian brethren were in danger of that very thing: falling from the grace that saved them. Looking at Chapter 5, verses 2 and 4, we read:

Galations 5:2,4
2) Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
4) You have become estranged from Christ you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

How much plainer could it be? These men, who were attempting to teach that circumcision was necessary for one to become a member of Christ's church, were clearly in danger of falling from their saving grace if they practiced this foreign gospel. In verse 2, it says that if they practice this, which clearly indicates that it was an option for them... that they could sin, Christ will profit them nothing. If Christ doesn't profit you anything, how can you make it to Heaven? You can't. If you have fallen from grace, you're not in God's grace... and if you're not in God's grace, you won't be saved.

If you want to use OSAS...which is not found in the scriptures, fine, go ahead.

What is it with you? Does not OSAS perfectly describe your position? Do you not believe that Once you're Saved you're Always Saved? If you do, then what's your problem? So what if it's not in the Bible. OSAS is simply an easy way to reference this belief.

The good works that we do is not to get saved, but it is because we are saved.

I seem to recall you saying that you weren't going to ride this merry go round or something like that. Make up your mind. If you want to continue it, answer my points.

[Kevin]

c.moore,

When you find a borrowed arguement that actually answers my points and questions, let me know.

[Evangelion]

Agape - so, no answers from you yet? Not even the "typology" and "obedience parables" questions? Very well.

I would like to know what "works" you are doing in order to "really" be saved and receive eternal life in the future?

Works of obedience. You know - those things which Christ talks about in the parables you don't want to address. But, since the gift of eternal life is worth more than we could ever give to God, these works of obedience do not "earn" us eternal life. (Which you'd know if you'd read the parable of the workers in the vineyard - the parable that nobody wants to talk about, apparently...)

So eternal life is a gift. Why is it a gift? Because we could not possibly earn it. So why should we be obedient? Because (a) God will not reward the disobedient, (b) we have promised to serve Him by entering a covenant relationshio with Him (through His Son), and (c) He is our Father, and we are called to be like Him in every way that we can.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Now I'm going to bed.

Goodnight.

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
I seem to recall you saying that you weren't going to ride this merry go round or something like that. Make up your mind. If you want to continue it, answer my points.

It's the same old broken record of private interpretation I get from you and from JAC.

I already made up my mind silly. Keep your works...I 'll stick with God's Grace ALONE.

TA TA

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

When you find a borrowed arguement that actually answers my points and questions, let me know.

Didn`t I answer your question about the spiritual baptism , and if you read my post to you I even put the three spiritual baptism ,that get us in the kingdom of God, before doing any works.

peace

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape - so, no answers from you yet? Not even the "typology" and "obedience parables" questions? Very well.

LOL. You really don't fool me one bit. "Your typology thingy" fell down a long time ago.

NOTE: Taken from Ephesians 2:4-9, which is the NC and addressed to the born-again Christians...and not in "parables," which was written to Israel and of which you haven't a clue to its meaning.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The most I can do for God is to accept my righteousness in Christ which cost him his life and to do my utmost for His Highest because I love Him and His Son and not slap Him in the face with unbelief by claiming grace + works for salvation, which is no different than saying he died in vain.

Accepting God's full grace for salvation and eternal life is being humble and meek before Him.

Adding works to God's Grace for salvation, which only Christ could bring, is nothing but man-made religion mingled with pride and ego.

[HopeofGlory]

agape,

You're doing a great job defending the power of God unto salvation against the unbelievers on this thread.

They have no spiritual understanding of the new creature created in Christ Jesus. They are of this world and do mind the things of this world but we sit together with Christ in heaven.
Our salvation is eternally secure as Christ is eternally secure for we are one with Him.

In Christ
Craig

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Didn`t I answer your question about the spiritual baptism ,

No, you didn't. Evangelion and I have been asking how spirit baptism represents the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer like water baptism does. Again:

In water baptism -

• You go down into the water. This represents the death.
• You completely immersed in water. This represents the burial.
• You come out of the water. This represents the resurrection... we are born again.

Paul says in Romans 6 that we are baptized into His death, we put away our man of sin by burying him, and we share in the likeness of His resurrection. Only water baptism can represent these three things (See above). How does spirit baptism represent this?

Spirit baptism is described in Acts 2:3 as appearing as tongues of fire that decends and rested upon the heads of the apostles. How does this represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer? Evangelion and I have shown how water baptism does.... now how does spirit baptism fit that bill? How? Your borrowed arguement didn't address that.

Not only this, but Paul, the author of Romans 6, practiced by baptizing in the name of the Lord, as even your borrowed arguement pointed out. Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with WATER (Acts 10:47-48). Paul practiced what he preached - water baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5). How do you reconcile this fact?

, John’s Disciples Receive Spiritual Baptism (Acts 19).
1. Paul "came to Ephesus" and there he found 12 "disciples." There is much debate on whether they were saved or lost.
2. Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They were "disciples" and Paul infers that they had "believed." I understand this to mean they were saved.
3. To answer his question they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." They had "believed" with limited knowledge. They were ignorant of the Spirit.
4. Paul asked a second question, "Into what were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism." We know John prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come. They obviously did not know this. It is logical that men may have been followers of Apollos who "knew only the baptism of John" (cf. 18:24-28).
5. Paul then launched into a sermon on John as the forerunner of Christ, that John’s message was "that they should believe on Him who would come after Him, that is on Christ Jesus."
6. No doubt Paul informed that John had said, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn.3:30) and "He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry" (Mt.3:11). He went on to give them the full gospel.
7. These "disciples" must have been like OT saints. They wholeheartedly believed what they knew, they just didn’t know enough. Note that "when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." They believed on Jesus.

LOL! The author of your borrowed arguement is helping MY arguement, not yours! In the above quote, the author of your borrowed arguement says that "John's Disciples Receive Spiritual Baptism (Acts 19)." Guess how they were baptized, c.moore! They were baptized in the name of the Lord, the same baptism I'VE BEEN PREACHING THIS ENTIRE TIME. Being baptized in the name of the Lord uses WATER, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. He is proving my point. Perhaps you should read the material a little closer before you copy and paste in attempt to answer my questions.

[Kevin]

Agape,

I already made up my mind silly. Keep your works...I 'll stick with God's Grace ALONE.

Short term memory? When did I ever question that we were saved by "GRACE" alone? I've been questioning that we are saved by grace through faith "ALONE" (which is not printed in that verse... as much as you'd like it to be).

So tell me agape, how can one confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus with faith "ALONE". Even you listed that in the requirements for salvation.

TA TA...

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by agape
What a "COP OUT" JAC...couldn't handle the truth anymore...eh?

Evangelion might be your "god," but he certainly is not mine.

I'll take AMEN..."SO BE IT" from THE ONE AND ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Btw, Evangelion...all your thumbs up make you look kind of foolish since JAC has been PROVEN WRONG each and every time.

I think you both deserve a

Agape,

You're barking like a coon hound at first tree! You don't know if a coon is up there, but you want him to know you're at the bottom! Keep your shirt on. I didn't say I was finished! Might as well be! It's like talking to a stone wall to reply to you. And, by the way, get the first scripture reference correct in your 1st paragraph. John 5:13 has nothing to do with your subject.

JustAChristian