[Zakath]

Ah, ah, ah, drbrumley! You should know better than to try to get someone to prove a negative!

You've, in essence, asked Ev. to prove that nobody taught dispensationalism before Darby.

[drbrumley]

Zakath,

Well, what have we done to be honored by your presence?
Oh wait, does your post even exist?

[Evangelion]

ROTFL! He has, too! What a cheeky little devil, eh?

drbrumley, I hate to be the one to tell you, but it's a simple fact of life that Dispy-ism did not exist before Darby came along.

You can lean more about the history of Dispy-ism and Darby (the Original Dispy) right here.

[Evangelion]

Oooh, I've just found a series of articles on Dispy-ism at the same Website!

You can view 'em at your leisure right here.

Time for bed. Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow!

[agape]

Originally posted by Apollos


What does it take for a man to become saved? It takes what God requires of him to do. Here is my list:
[color=blue][b]
-Man must HEAR God’s word and BELIEVE it – Romans 10:17.

Correct

-Man must REPENT of his sins. – Acts 17:30

Correct - repentance means to confess our Savior from sins.

-Man must CONFESS Jesus as the Son of God. – Romans 10:10

Man must confess and believe Jesus Christ died for their sins and that God raised him from the dead. At that moment he/she is born again of God's Spirit and has eternal life.

And culmatively…

-Man must be water BAPTIZED into Christ! – Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38,41, Gal. 3:27

INCORRECT...man's private interpretation only..

Jesus said one must be born again of God's Spirit to be saved and to have entrance into the Kingdom of God. To be born of God's Spirit is to be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...He did not say one must be water baptized into Christ because that is not the truth and cannot possibly occur. No one can be "water baptized "into" Christ. That statement does not even exist in the Scriptures.

[Evangelion]

OK, I admit it - I couldn't resist!

Here's another one (from the same Website), for drbrumley -

• What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation...
  
  If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation.
  John H. Gershner - Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.

The plot thickens! (Oooh, those nasty, cultic Dispys! Whatever will they think of next?!)

[Apollos]

agape –

Finally you admit that man must do something to obtain the salvation God offers by His grace. Now all we have to do is determine which things are essential, which is what you have begun to do. Given your temperament, this is progress!!

I have you down (from your last post) that man must repent and confess. Now of course, man must hear and believe before he can repent and confess (this is axiomatic), so I now have you down for (your list is):

Hear / Believe / Repent / Confess / ….

See, we are 80% in AGREEMENT. I knew you did not believe in that “faith only” foolishness.

So that brings us to WHICH baptism is required. Once you learn that it is WATER baptism and not Spirit baptism that it required for salvation, you will be 100% !!! I am encouraged for you!!!

Jesus said one must be born again of God's Spirit to be saved…

Oh agape!! I am so disappointed that you would SUBTRACT from God’s word! The passage (John 3:5) plainly tells us that TWO agents are required – WATER and the Spirit! Why would you leave WATER out of the passage? God didn’t!! (I think I see an agenda here…)

To be born of God's Spirit is to be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...

Not again!! Twice in your last post you leave off part of God’s word!! Now agape, you need to pay attention to what God is saying in John 3:5. You know Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:23 that we are “born again” through the word. The word in John 3:5 tells us it takes WATER and SPIRIT. Trying to be saved by just ONE agent is cheating God, makes Him a liar, and is only 50% at best. God needs 100% from us. 100% = WATER –and- Spirit.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 5:26 and in Titus 3:5 that WATER and Spirit are involved and are necessary for salvation.

We are nearly there agape. Don’’t “dry-up” on me now!!

[itsjustdave1988]

Agape said:

Why should they even be water baptized AFTER they received the gift of holy spirit? Did water add to their being born again, saved and having eternal life? Did water add to the fullness of Christ in them, the hope of glory?

Your confusion may be due to a flawed salvation theology. There’s no assurance of salvation after Baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches us to have hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ. That we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Baptism is the beginning of a faith journey, which ends (hopefully) in salvation. But I can always fall from God's grace.

Why the water then? Answre: Santifying grace. Peter was a Church-man. His Church had Sacraments. Water Baptism is a Sacrament which is the means of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is Santifying Grace.

But didn’t they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Santifying Grace) already? Sure. What’s wrong with more of God’s Grace?

Dave

[itsjustdave1988]

Agape said:

As I have already stated: Peter responded with what was necessary to the reaction of those Judean believers who were with him: why are you so bewildered?? Surely none of you circumcised people, nor I myself, have the able power to hinder or block the water (spiritual water which is holy spirit-life) to cause these Gentiles to not be baptized in holy spirit? Are we going to hinder the purposes of God from these people - these people of the Gentile background whom we can hear speaking with tongues which is proof that they have received the same holy spirit-life and they now are able to manifest the promise of the Father which the Lord Jesus Christ foretold about, are we? No, of course we are not able to hinder God's will.

Wow … you violently butchered Peter’s meaning.

Dave

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Why are you emphasizing the part that speaks about believing in the heart? I've never disagreed with that. What I've been giving Agape a hard time about is that he (or she?) is claiming that one "confesses" inwardly with the heart. That is NOT what the verse says! It says with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation. The MOUTH, not the heart, but you just blindly defend Agape, don't you.

Therefore in order to CONFESS "with the mouth", you have to use your mouth, right? That's what I'm asking you. Will your pride stop you from answering this simple question honestly?

Here is what started this whole thing (page 118 at the top):

Kevin:
"Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agape:
With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself"

We were talking about the act of confessing, not believing. If you confess within yourself, you are not using your mouth, which is what we are to use according to that verse!

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,
Therefore in order to CONFESS "with the mouth", you have to use your mouth, right? That's what I'm asking you. Will your pride stop you from answering this simple question honestly?

No...NOT RIGHT. You DO NOT have to use your mouth. It means "YOU are saying it...you are saying ...not out loud (although you could)...but that's not the point...you are saying that Christ is your savior, he died for your sins...you are confessing your Savior FROM SIN. This is not works which you are trying to prove. NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. It is what is in your heart that matters. How silly to think that you have to say it out loud to be saved. The mouth doesn't save you...Christ saved you and this is what you are confessing. It does not say to confess with thy mouth before men. Even that would not save you. You are really becoming quite boring harping on the same issue over and over again. If you still want to believe you have to say it out loud to be saved then fine, but give it a rest already.

[drbrumley]

Kevin,

Then if I take your opinion, someone who is mute and cant speak
doesn't have a chance to heaven?

If that isn't about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

[Evangelion]

Nope. Your argument is based on the false assumption that all we need to do is confess Jesus, and we'll be saved.

That's a classic example of taking one verse out of context, and ignoring any other verse which might qualify it.

[Kevin]

Agape,

It means "YOU are saying it

Saying it with what, according to that verse?

you are saying ...not out loud

If you are not saying it outloud then you are not using your mouth. If your mouth does not move, you are not using your mouth. The verse says that we are to confess with the MOUTH. You can't confess with the mouth if you don't USE the mouth! One of the fucntions of the mouth is to speak OUT LOUD what we think and feel INWARDLY.

If that verse meant for us to confess Him in the heart, it would have said so, but that's not what it says. It says we are to confess with the MOUTH.

Oh how I WISH we were standing in front of a crowd so I could bury you with your logic!!! I would LOVE to see the looks on the crowd's faces (and yours) when I challenge you do confess something to me with the mouth, without using your mouth. That would be a Kodak moment indeed.

I'd like to see you practice what you preach. Confess something with your mouth without actually using it! Please. As the title of this post says, you're not doing yourself, or your position, any favors.

Some more experiments for you to practice what you preach:

1) Strike a nail "with the hammer" without using the hammer.

2) Start a car "with the key" without using the key.

3) Write your name "with the pen" without using the pen.

I challenge you to do any/all of these things "indwardly" without actually using the mentioned items. You're so lucky this isn't a verbal debate in front of an audience. Easy pickins.

[Kevin]

drbrumley,

Kevin,

Then if I take your opinion, someone who is mute and cant speak
doesn't have a chance to heaven?

A God who does not allow us to be tempted with more than we can bear (1 Cor.10:13), would not expect something of us that we cannot do. Your statement does not excuse the many that can do this.

If that isn't about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

No, what is "dumb" is when man tries to make excuses for what the Bible says, trying to justify not doing it. That's dumb. He who has an ear, let him hear!