[Freak]

Rapt & Just,

It is apparent you have chosen to remain spiritual darkness. That is a shame for you are degrading the Lord Jesus and His great salvation. You trust in baptism where I trust in Christ.

Since Christ was baptized do you believe He did it for a sign/symbolic reason or for Salvation??????????????

I hope and pray you will not say Jesus was baptized for salvation.

Interested in your answer.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Ian Day

Q1 "May I prepose that the Scriptures teaches that water baptism is for, in order to obtain, the remission of past sins. "

Of course you can, BUT its not true. Baptism, like circumcision, like the Lord's Supper, is a sign. It is a sign to the believer of what it means to be IN CHRIST. But it does not itself effect salvation. It is a sign for the saved believer.

Just as the sign of circumcision, [was] a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Please note that Romans 6 comes after Romans 1-5. Paul is writing systematic theology.

Baptism is the New Covenant SIGN of all those things but for the believer already who has repented & turned to God in faith.

Hebrews 9 shows us primarily that it is a sign of the applied blood of the sacrifice of Christ, the reality of which is attained by the renewing, regenerating of the Holy Spirit.

To make the sign of righteousness by faith in Christ essential to obtaining that righteousness is to deny that saving righteousness is by faith in Christ.

You failed to follow a systematic path of disprove my conclusion. Putting assertions in place of proof is not a viable solution to debate. Where does baptism ever speak of itself as a sign? We can not be a part of Christ without baptism: Note, Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." What were they added to? The Church. When were they added to the church? (Acts 2:47). Salvation is in the body (Eph 1:3) The body is the church (Col. 1:18). We are baptized into the church. Its that simple.

JustAChristian

[Freak]

Answer my question Just a Christian....

[rapt]

Oh, Lord Jesus, if what Ian and Huguenot are saying is true, please convince me; I don't want to be a blind Pharisee; I want to know and believe the truth, not adding to or taking from Your commandments.

I have been studying with the Church of Christ, and am finding that they suppose that they are the only church. They deny being a "denomonation". I believe they are correct to say that Christ is not divided, as into many denomonations, for that is indeed confusion; Christ's doctrine is ONE, not many. But every cult I've ever been in has always claimed to be the ONLY church. So I discern a high red flag, warning me of danger.

They also have recently tried to refute the holiness churches' doctrines, some of which are indeed errors, but others that seem to me to be correct. They say that baptism in Jesus' name is a "misunderstanding", and that we must be baptised into the titles "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". But I don't believe for a second that Peter had any "misunderstanding" the day he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and spake as the Spirit gave him utterance, and taught baptism in Jesus' name! (Acts 2:28) I believe that there is ONE NAME given among men whereby we must be baptised and saved, and that is Jesus Christ (or Yashua, if you prefer Hebrew Acts 4:12). That is the name above all names, both in Heaven and Earth (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9).

The CoC also claims that the holiness church is in error concerning the gifts of the Spirit, and the baptism thereof. They claim that the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit was only ever received by the Apostles, and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are now "done away". I think they are in error on both points, even though what I've seen practiced in the holiness church is very often an abuse of the gifts (if they are gifts at all to begin with), such as when a number of people in a congregation speak in "tongues" simultaniously (if it can even be called "tongues"; I think much of what is practiced is pure emotionalism; it is not spoken as the Spirit gives utterance), when scripture clearly forbids that, calling it "confusion". Also, any ONE person is forbidden to speak out loud in a congregation in tongues whenever there is no interpretation (1Cor 14). In such a case, one that truly speaks in an unknown tongue must do it "to himself and to God", keeping silence in the church . Anyone speaking out of his own emotionalism has no right to do it out loud or silently; he should completely DENY such a thing; it is of the flesh and not of God.

The holiness church is in great error to claim that a person is not saved unless he speaks in "tongues" (especially since they accept emotionalism in the place of the Spirit's utterance as evidence of His baptism), since scripture clearly shows that the Spirit doesn't give everyone the same gift, operation, or administration (1Cor 12) (i.e, not everyone will speak in tongues any more than everyone is a prophet, an apostle, or has the gift of miracles or healing).

In conclusion, I think the gifts are still given by the Spirit to the church as He will, but the church's responsibility is to restrict their use to scriptural guidelines, and not allow the confusion of emotionalism to rule rather than the Holy Spirit. If things are done decently and in order, as the scripture commands, there would be no abuse. I think baptism is still commanded, but I see a similarity between (OT) circumcision and (NT) baptism, in that circumcision could never have circumcised one's heart any more than baptism can wash away sins, for just as one can be immersed time after time and still never rise up "dead in Christ", so outward circumcision was also worthless unless true faith abode in one's heart. It seems true that both are signs; acts of obedience to the commandment of God, but not the very thing that cleanses the heart.

The blood of bulls and goats could never make a sacrificer's conscience perfect, but the blood of Christ can, and that is only ever obtained by faith, not by outward ceremony. On the other hand, disobedience to the commandment of God disannuls faith, for faith without works is dead.

I pray that my understanding will be a faithful response to what scripture commands rather than a fleshly reaction to those that deny the scriptures, including the NT commandment to be baptised.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Freak
Rapt & Just,

It is apparent you have chosen to remain spiritual darkness. That is a shame for you are degrading the Lord Jesus and His great salvation. You trust in baptism where I trust in Christ.

Since Christ was baptized do you believe He did it for a sign/symbolic reason or for Salvation??????????????

I hope and pray you will not say Jesus was baptized for salvation.

Interested in your answer.

The Bible tells us:

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Psalms 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

The verses tell us that Jesus was baptized to fulfil all righteousness. The commandments of the law disclose God's righteousness. It was essential for Jesus to show the righteousness of God in obeying His commands as a man. Jesus was baptized to fulfil the command of God.

Secondly, Jesus was baptized in order that God could manifest Him to the Jewish nation as the Messiah. (Matt. 3:17; John 1:31; Acts 10:38).

JustAChristian

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Freak
Answer my question Just a Christian....

Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5) There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism. Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.
Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL." (Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2) People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense sre not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!

JustAChristian

[rapt]

JustaChristian:

Where does baptism ever speak of itself as a sign?

Where was circumcision ever spoken of as a "sign" in the OT? The only scripture I ever found that called circumcision a sign is in the NT.

There were other signs given beside circumcision, which could never have saved anyone who practiced them without faith in God. If they had faith in the sign without faith in God, they would have only deceived themselves (such as eating unleavened bread just before the Passover; keeping the Sabbath; sacrificing animals, etc.)

Noah, who moved with fear, had been in the process of preparing the ark long before his typical baptism took place. (Now I don't say this to coddle or justify anyone who supposes that they can either omit or put off being baptized, since Noah did just as he was commanded, and did not procrastinate) His "baptism" was a sign of his faith, and his faithful obedience was what saved him. Had he not had a good conscience toward God, he would never have built the ark, and would have perished with the wicked.

Abraham too walked in faithful obedience before he received circumcision:

Romans 4:12 (Abraham was) the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

I still think that if we truly "believe" in Christ, we will DO WHAT HE COMMANDED, but we will trust in Him and not any outward ceremony only (which even any unfaithful hypocrit can perform) to save us.

[rapt]

JustaChristian:

Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

Good point, JustaChristian! I believe Jesus made an exception here, and saved this man though he wasn't baptized. But the man is not a model to follow! We had better not hope that we too will recieve death bed amnesty when we have rejected God's commandment, for WE KNOW BETTER!

And I CERTAINLY AGREE with all you replied to Freak concerning good works. Jn 15:2 especially knocks his false doctrine down, as do the many others you quoted.

[Freak]

I would urge all of those who embrace that false teaching that baptism is essential for salvation read what Paul had to say in Romans 8:30: Whom He justified, He also glorified.

Note the words Paul used. The Apostle made it clear after you are justified you will be glorified. And we know justification occurs by faith in Christ (see Romans 5:1-"having been justified by faith"). So when you place your faith in Christ-not only are you justified but will be glorified. Notice no mention of baptism.

[rapt]

I would urge all of those who embrace the false teaching that "baptism (or obedience to any other commandment of Christ) is not essential for salvation" to read what John said about what happens to everyone who adds to or takes from the God's Holy Word, and what Paul said about anyone perverting the gospel of Christ:

Revelation 22
18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(So much for "once-saved, always-saved"! No one ever gets their name IN the book who never was born again!)


Galatians 1
6
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7
which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. (NIV)

8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

God only gives the Holy Spirit to "THOSE THAT OBEY HIM", and if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not Christ's child. (Rom 8:9; Acts 5:32)

Acts 5
32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Romans 8
9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The children of disobedience are the children of God's WRATH; THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED, even if they ever once truly believed. (2Pet 2:20-22; 2Pet 3:17; James 5:19.20; Heb 3:7-15; Jn 15:2; Mat 3:10-12; Jn 14:15 with 1Cor 16:22; 1Jn 2:4; 1Cor 6:9,10; 1Jn 3:7)

[rapt]

For anyone who thinks they can object that Rev 22:18,19 is limited to the book of Revelation alone, consider what the spirit of prophecy is to begin with:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

...and remember, Rev 22 is not the first time adding or taking away from God's word was forbidden:

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


Luke 16
1
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2
And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3
Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4
I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5
So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6
And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7
Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

This UNJUST STEWARD was put out of his position because he wasted his lord's goods. To have a place to stay once he got kicked out, he then did not require the full amount of payment from his lord's debtors. IN THE SAME UNJUST WAY, THE FALSE TEACHERS DO NOT REQUIRE FULL OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IN ORDER TO EITHER OBTAIN OR RETAIN THEIR POSITION IN A CHURCH THAT TEACHES FALSELY . So they "take away" from what we are commanded to do and pervert the gospel, and scratch the itching ears of the disobedient.

[Ian Day]

Why was Jesus baptised ?

In what way did he "fulfill all righteousness" ?
WHere is baptism commanded in the Old Covenant Scriptures, for if baptism is not therein commanded, why should the Lord have sought baptism ?

Let's have a closer look at the Scriptures:

Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

In these verses, Jesus is implying that John's baptism gave him authority. Priestly authority.

Jesus Christ was High Priest while on earth
In what way was Jesus a priest while he was on earth? Hebrews makes it clear that as a descendant of Judah, he could not be a priest. He was not a priest descended from Aaron. But, Aaron's priesthood was ‘typical' of Christ's eternal priesthood, for Jesus is ‘a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.' The tabernacle (temple) worship was not the true worship to which all must conform, but it was a copy of the heavenly pattern. (Heb. 8)

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, and was proclaimed king, son of David, by the people. He entered the temple and drove out the traders, saying, ‘It is written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers.'‘ Matt. 21:13.

Next day the chief priests and elders challenged him. Only a priest had authority to cleanse the temple. THey were priests, and they had the authority. 2 Kings 23:4.

Matt. 21:23-27. Note that Jesus answered their challenge with his own challenge. They dared not answer. Jesus seemed to be implying that he was consecrated priest by his baptism by John.

By his baptism, at the age of thirty, Jesus was submitting to the ceremonial washing for the priesthood, by a priest. The Father God owned the appointment of the Son of God, and anointed him with the Holy Spirit. Thus he was consecrated as the Great High Priest.

Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

By his baptism Jesus was submitting to the legal act of righteousness required when a priest was consecrated.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by rapt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JustaChristian:

Where does baptism ever speak of itself as a sign?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not find any place where it speaks of baptism as a sign.

JustAChristian

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Freak
I would urge all of those who embrace that false teaching that baptism is essential for salvation read what Paul had to say in Romans 8:30: Whom He justified, He also glorified.

Note the words Paul used. The Apostle made it clear after you are justified you will be glorified. And we know justification occurs by faith in Christ (see Romans 5:1-"having been justified by faith"). So when you place your faith in Christ-not only are you justified but will be glorified. Notice no mention of baptism.

On what grounds do you consider baptism not a part of faith? I have always believed that faith comes before baptism and is a prerequesite to baptism (Acts 8:36-37). Without faith it is impossible to please God. (Heb. 11:6). We are saved by grace when we do that which is received from Christ, the apostles and inspired writers, by faith. It is not faith alone that saves, but the faith that obeys (Rom. 1:5; Heb 5:8-9). I have no doubt that we are justified by faith, but not by faith alone. If we were, then even repentence would not be required for salvation (Luke 13:3; Act 17:30-31). Do you believe that one can be saved with repentence?

JustAChristian

[rapt]

JustAChristian,

I agreed with you on page 13 that Freak is blind to say that since baptism is not mentioned in some scriptures that refer to eternal life, therefore it isn't required. But my agreement with you is now applicable to your own blindness to the fact that baptism is a sign, and not the very substance of salvation, even though the NT never calls it a "sign" in so many words.

you:

I do not find any place where it speaks of baptism as a sign.

me, from page 13:

Such blindness makes me remember one poster that said that because the word "covenant" is not found in Genesis concerning God's commandment to Adam and Eve, therefore there couldn't have been any covenant.

That's about as bright as saying that this sentence:
quote:

He fell down the stairs

doesn't say ANYTHING about the man stumbling because the word "stumble" isn't used!

How does one deal with such childishness, and the unwillingness to admit when one is wrong?

I guess Paul said it: "If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant".