You say that if someone performs an act on the Lord Jesus Christ´s instruction,then it is not a work.
But Scripture proves that you are wrong.
James calls the act whereby Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar an "act",and we know that he did this on the instruction of the Lord.
And you say that the sins of an unrepentant person are not forgiven no matter if he is baptized in water.In that case,why does your church teach that babies who are baptized have their sins taken away?It is obvious that a baby cannot be repentant.
Last edited by Jerry Shugart; August 28th, 2002 at 07:23 AM.
Allow me! You asked Kevin, "How can anyone be washed by the blood of Jesus Christ by being water baptized?" Then you asked if the water can be changed into blood.
Then let me ask you a question, please: When Jesus was with His disciples at the table and had broke the bread in their presence, He said, "Take, eat; this is My body" (Matt. 26:26).
Then He took the cup and gave it to them and said, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant" (Matt. 26:27-28).
Jesus DID NOT say that the bread and the cup represented His body and blood; He gave the bread to them and said that it was His "body" and then gave the cup to them and said that it was his "blood."
Question: Was the bread "changed" (as you yourself put it) into Jesus' literal, physical body and the cup into His literal, physical blood at the moment the disciples took them????????
Where's your feedback Jerry??? -
August 28th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Jerry -
You need to ANSWER some of the points and arguments being made here instead of your perpetual question asking.
You point to me 2 posts ago was - God could not "associate" with sinners, therefore for Cornelius to receive HS baptism, he MUST have had his sins forgiven, and therefore water baptism was not essential.
I have shown the REASON Cornelius received HS baptism - a miracle to confirm to all, especially the Jews, that it was God's will that the GENTILES receive repentance unto life. HS baptsim was NOT for the remission of sins!!
I then showed that AFTER HS baptism, Peter (by inspiration of the HS) COMMANDED that they be (water) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
WHY did Peter do this???
Jerry, you said NOTHING! Before you ask me now if I truly believe "water" can remit sins, why don't you participate? (Although I have already answered that question not too long ago!)
Hmmmmm????
Last edited by Apollos; August 28th, 2002 at 03:20 PM.
The Lord Jesus Christ also said,"I am the Door;by Me if any man enter in,he shall be saved..."(Jn.10:9).
Does that mean that the Lord Jesus was saying that He was literally a "door"?
Of course not!
And when the Lord said,"For this is My blood of the new testament...",it is equally clear that He was not saying that the wine had been turned into His blood.
And how do we know that?
In His very next sentence He says:
"But I say unto you,I will not drink henceforth of THIS FRUIT OF THE VINE,until the day when I drink it new with you in My Father´s kingdom"(Mt.26:29).
Yes,I perform "works" quite often,but I know that I am not saved by these "works",but instead I am saved by His mercy.
The "works" that I do are a part of my "reasonable service":
"I beseech you,therefore,brethren,by the mercies of God,that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy,acceptable unto God,which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).
I said that the Holy Spirit could not indwell anyone as long as they remain in their sins.I did not say that the Holy Spirit would not associate with anyone while they remained in their sins.
You say that you gave a reason why Cornelius received HS baptism,and you say that it was to show that it "was God´s will that the GENTILES receive repentance unto life."
Yes,but you did not explain why they received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.
God could have shown that it was God´s will that the Gentiles were to be saved by having the Holy Spirit fall on them AFTER the water baptism,as it had happened in the past.
But since the Lord has a reason for all the things He does,we can see that He was demonstrating that the "water baptism" has nothing whatsoever to do with receiving the Holy Spirit or of having sins remitted.
And we know that it is the Holy Spirit Who "sanctifies" by the "blood of Christ":
"Elect,according to the foreknowledge of God,the Father,through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT,unto obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST"(1Pet.1:2).
If "water baptism" is essential for salvation,why didn´t Peter say so on the day of Pentecost?Here are hiswords:
"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).
If "water baptism" is ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did Paul not say so in response to the question of the Philipian jailer when he asked,"What must I do to be saved?"
Instead of saying,you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND BE BAPTIZED,he said:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).
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August 28th, 2002, 03:53 PM
c.moore,
quote:
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it makes no difference which of these names used in a baptism because you and I know this fact who Jesus really is, so your understanding of only using the name of the Lord is the new baptism is out of order, unless you change and say that the Lord is not God.
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You said:Kevin
No, I'm not going to say that the Lord is not God. This is not a Trinity issue. What I've been trying to emphasize is that baptism in the name of the Lord (which baptizes you in the name of all three), was not instituted until AFTER the death on the cross (Matt. 28:19-20). AFTER the cross. This baptism DID NOT EXIST before the death on the cross. So if you are still trying to argue that John the baptist baptized people in the name of the Lord, you are wrong, because it didn't exist then. And again, Acts 19:1-5 clearly shows that John's baptism and baptism in the name of the Lord are different baptism, because they were rebaptized.
Also, baptism in the name of the Lord is what baptizes us into Christ's death. Christ hadn't died when John the baptist was baptizing people, so how could John baptize people into a death that had not happened yet?.
The only reason that I continually say baptism "in the name of the Lord" is because that's the example we are given when the apostles baptized people with the baptism that was commanded of them in the great commission. They baptized people in the name of the Lord. This is what they did, and this is what I preach. What is your hang up about that?
Quote c.moore
My hang up is that you put this baptism before believing , and trusting Jesus as their salvation,and becoming disciples , and sons and daughter before the baptismal and is completly backwards.
You keep putting the cart before the horses, and that can`t work.
let look at your scriptures you gave in your new water baptismal.
Ac:19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
We see here that these people are believers and workers for God because they are disciples already praise God.
Ac:19:2: He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
A question is ask about the Holy Ghost but notice they are already believer, because they believed which is pass tence, so also the order of getting saved was first believing not baptism
Ac:19:3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Ac:19:4: Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
We see that here John baptism was about repentance.
They also learned about Jesus Christ and accepted Jesus now in thier baptism, so they wanted to be baptized in Jesus who they follow as His disciples.
Ac:19:5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Know i see they was baptized in repentance by John and know they are baptized in Jesus name or under the authority of Jesus Christ.
Ac:19:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
In thier circumstance Paul layed hand on the disciple and they recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but they were baptized twice because they lacked knowledge that they can be baptized in Jesus.
quote:c.moore
I know we don`t die like Jesus on a cross but I know we die in the spiritual unseen way,and we don`t need a water baptismal ritual to help the Holy Spirit.
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The examples of people in the Bible getting baptized in His name are done so with WATER (Acts 10:47-48). The people were baptized in water in Acts 2:38. The eunuch was baptized with water after being preached Jesus. WATER is the example that we are given on how baptism in His name is perform, and therefore that is how it is to be done. What is your hang up about following the inspired example? The Lord Himself said that unless one is born of WATER and the Spirit, that one cannot enter heaven (John 3:5).
Quote c.moore
First of all in this circumstance these believed first , look in verse43 and 45 in Acts 10 .
So this time some people believed and was filled with the Holy Ghost before they got wet in the name of the LOrd.
So the hang up I have is your backward teaching , that first water baptism and then you believe and get saved and last get filled with the Spirit.
You keep putting the cart before the horses, and that can`t work.
The next thing which you interpretate wrong is this verse John 3:5 , you think water in this verse is your water baptismal for the Lord, but the water is the word of God , or our instructions and the word of God has many attributes like the bread and THE WATER, the living word,aand many other words.
Look how the people in Acts first came to believe ,and that is by hearing the Word of God and the rest came afterwards.
even in Matt 28:19 Jesus says first teach all nation, or give them the water and washing of the word.
You always say I have no scriptures to back up what I say but when I show you the verses you have the false interpretation of the scripture any how.
Even satan tryed to use the Word of God on jesus when he wanted Jesus to jumple from the temple he used Psalms 91 , but Jesus knew the real spiritual context of the Word not to jump and how the devil was using what is true words of God , but the deep understanding Jesus knew because the Holy Spirit was in Him.
That why I advise you get more involved in the spirital things rather than put your faith more on the visible things.
Look at Elisha servant who saw the armies getting ready to attack them and there was only two of them but the servant was afraid until Elisha let him see into the spiritual world, and you need to see into the spirit thing Kevin, and until then it don`t even make no sence talking to you, and it?s just a waste of time giving spiritual information to a carnal fleshly person.
I pray one day you will see the spiritual things and be more led by the spirit than by this carnal world.
Peace
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Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Evangelist c.moore
How do you merit for yourself all the graces needed to attain eternal life if you do not do "works"?
You believe that the only way that you can have your sins removed is by taking part in the sacraments of the church at Rome,do you not?
You do believe that these "sacraments" were commanded by God do you not?
Well,taking part of these "sacraments" ordered by God fall under the category of "works", just as the things that Abraham did in obedience to God are called "works".
So whether or not you realize that you are attempting to be saved by "works",in reality you are.
How do you merit for yourself all the graces needed to attain eternal life if you do not do "works"?
You believe that the only way that you can have your sins removed is by taking part in the sacraments of the church at Rome,do you not?
I do not. And neither does the Catholic Church. We consider the Protestant churches our brothers in Christ and we know God uses those churches to bring souls to salvation without the sacraments. That's why Catholics pray every day for the divisions in Christianity to be healed, so we can all be as one according to Christ's wishes.
Quote:
You do believe that these "sacraments" were commanded by God do you not?
I don't believe God ever said, 'Thou shalt be baptized, etc...', so if that;s what you mean by commanded, my answer is NO. I believe they were gifts to the Church, through which graces are conferred on those who partake of the sacraments, graces that help us to lead a holy life and persevere in the faith.
Quote:
Well,taking part of these "sacraments" ordered by God fall under the category of "works", just as the things that Abraham did in obedience to God are called "works".
You already clarified that YOU do works all the time by being obedient to God. So what? If you're saying being obedient to God is not necessary for salvation, I will disagree with that. Jesus said if we loved Him we would follow His commandments. If we don't love Him, I doubt we'll be going to heaven.
Quote:
So whether or not you realize that you are attempting to be saved by "works",in reality you are.
Wrong again! I do not believe you can 'work' your way to heaven. Do you not remember that YOU and I have already agreed that repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, that the merits of the Blood of Jesus Christ washes those sins away, etc... Knowing that I believe these things, how can you say that I am trying to be saved by 'works'?
Whether you realize it or not, all the anti-Catholic rhetoric you have been deluged with, probably since you were a child, is just not true. Because you have these prejudices ingrained in you, you can't see the truth about Catholicism. So, you go looking for anything you can find to embarass or degrade the Church with, whether it is true or not. You constantly insult the Church with all this 'Pagan' nonsense, and 'the Church at Rome.'
You remind me of the old folks I grew up around in Georgia during the desegregation days. Some of those folks honestly believed that black people were 'devils', had tails, and all sorts of other nonsense. Why? Because it was ingrained in them as children. Most of those people could never get past the prejudices they had lived with all their lives, and therefore never saw the truth. I hope you can.
God Bless,
Francisco
PS - I don't have a tail or horns, and I read the Bible every day.
How can anyone be washed by the blood of Jesus Christ by being water baptized?
Does the water change into blood?
Jerry, my point, in citing in citing Matt. 26:26-28 was -- You asked, How can anyone be washed by the blood of Jesus Christ by being water baptized?" And the answer is - by the very same way that we can take, today in 2002, bread and the cup and obey the command of Christ to eat of His body and drink of His blood, both of which perished from the earth 2000 years ago - by the power of God to "reckon" it as such. Jesus said, "With God all things are possible." So when I eat the bread and drink the cup, I am NOT merely eating bread as I do when I'm eating a sandwich at lunch time. And when I am drinking the cup, the "fruit of the vine," in the context that the Lord Jesus said to in Matt. 26, I am NOT merely drinking "grape juice" as I might if I were sitting in front of the TV watching a movie and sipping on a bottle of grape juice.
GOD HAS THE POWER TO PERFORM AN OPERATION THAT MAKES "PHYSICAL" THINGS TAKE ON "SPIRITUAL PROPERTIES.
In the same way, we may not know how the waters of baptism work in conjunction with the blood of Christ to wash away our sins, but when the scriptures say - "Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16) - I don't have to know HOW they do that. Nor do I have to reason in my mind that since the scriptures say that the blood of Christ washes away my sin, then that means NOTHING ELSE can accomplish this - EVEN IF THE SCRIPTURES STATE SOMETHING ELSE DOES!!!!
I have enough faith in God to believe that when He says the blood of Christ washes away my sin, that they are washed away - AND - that when the scriptures say that BAPTISM also washes away my sins, that they are washed away by that means, too! Why? BECAUSE THE WORD OF GOD SAYS SO, THAT'S WHY!!!!!
Since you say that we must obey Him to be saved,may I ask if you have you done ALL the Lord´s commandments?
James says that if you fail in one,then you are guilty of failing in all (Jms.2:10).
If we are saved by faith plus obeying Him by keeping HIs commandments,then we are all doomed.No one obeys Him perfectly.
You mentioned to "Kevin" that it is not faith plus obeying God's commandments that saves us, then you go to the extreme position of saying that we must obey all of God's commandments to be saved if we are going to be saved by obedience at all.
But this is NOT the case. Heb. 5:9 says that Christ became "the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him."
It does NOT say "for all who perfectly obey all of His commandments," as your view holds. You ADD that part to the scriptures.
How can you possibly believe, Jerry, that one is saved by faith apart from obedience, when Heb. 5:9 so PERFECTLY CLEAR states that we ARE saved by our obedience to Christ?
Moreover, consider this: Jesus says that the first and greatest commandment is that we are to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matt. 22:37)
Now watch this - He said we are to love God with "ALL" of our heart, soul, and mind. But what does it mean to "love" God?
It is NOT defined by human wisdom or knowledge, but by the word of GOD:
"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to His commands" (2 John 6).
In other words, to love God as JESUS has commanded all of us to do - with "ALL" of our heart, soul, and mind - and love is equated with "walk[ing] in obedience to His commands," this means that in order for us to obey Jesus' command in Matt. 22:37, we MUST walk in obedience to God's commands with "ALL" of our heart, soul, and mind!!!!!
This view emanating from the scriptures is diametrically opposed to your "faith only" - "obedience-less" salvation!!!
Where's your feedback Jerry??? -
August 28th, 2002, 03:16 PM
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