I am sick and tired of you misrepresenting what I say.
I never said that I "claim that belief in the gospel is by the will of man."
My point is that you keep contradicting yourself on this issue. You say it's not by the will of man that we believe the gospel, it's by 'evidence'. But that is a contradiction because belief based on evidence necessitates that one wills themself to listen to the gospel being preached, then one has to will themselves to weigh the evidence, then one has to will themselves to make a decision based on the evidence. It's your theology that doesn't make sense AND IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.
My theology is based directly on scripture. You can not believe in the gospel without grace:
'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)
'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)
This allows no room for your 'evidence' Jerry. Only by the grace of God can we come to believe in the gospel.
So it is not that I am misrepresenting you, it is that your statements are convoluted and contradictory.
Read the Bible Jerry, and throw the preconceived notions of your man-made theology away!
God Bless,
Francisco
Last edited by Francisco; December 3rd, 2002 at 09:01 PM.
I never contradicted myself on any issue.In order to make it appear as if I had,you were forced to put words in my mouth that I never said.And now you refuse to admit that you misrepresented what I said,and instead you continue to insist that I contradicted myself.
And the fact of the matter is that it takes "belief" in the gospel in order to be saved.And one cannot "will" himself to believe anything.Yes,a person can will himself to listen to the gospel but that does not change the fact that one cannot "will" himself to believe it.
And it is "belief" in the gospel that brings everlasting life.The Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?".To which Paul answered,"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:30,31).
The sinner either believes the gospel based on the evidence or he does not.And yes,the Lord "reveals" the truth to us through the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit(1Pet.1:12;1Thess.1:5).However,some men "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts7:51) and never come to the knowledge of the truth.
However,those that do not resist the Holy Spririt consider the evidence and make a determination as to whether or not it is true based on their reason":
"And Paul,as his manner was,went into them,and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).
Paul "reasoned" with them and his evidence was the "gospel" itself and other EVIDENCE contained in the OT Scriptures.
"And he (Paul) REASONED in the synagogue every sabbath,and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks"(Acts18:4).
And when he had "reasoned" with the Jews at Berea,they searced the Scriptures looking for the EVIDENCE as to whether or not what Paul said was true or not:
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(ACts17:11,12).
So the Holy Scriptures make it plain that one "believes" based upon his "reasoning" as to whether or not the evidence presented is true or not
And that is not a function of the "will".One cannot "will" himself to believe anything that he does not believe is true.
And you say that there is no room for evidence.Well,if that is the case why did those at Berea "search the Scriptures daily,whether those things were true" if there is no room for evidence?
And when one "believes" the gospel and has faith,he knows that the EVIDENCE presented to him is true--"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the EVIDENCE of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).
It is not that my ideas are "convoluted",as you say,but instead you only prove that you do not even understand even the most elementary things of God.
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,ye have need that one teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God,and are become such as have need of milk,and not of solid food"(Heb.5:12).
I never contradicted myself on any issue.In order to make it appear as if I had,you were forced to put words in my mouth that I never said.And now you refuse to admit that you misrepresented what I said,and instead you continue to insist that I contradicted myself.
And the fact of the matter is that it takes "belief" in the gospel in order to be saved.And one cannot "will" himself to believe anything.Yes,a person can will himself to listen to the gospel but that does not change the fact that one cannot "will" himself to believe it.
And it is "belief" in the gospel that brings everlasting life.The Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?".To which Paul answered,"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:30,31).
The sinner either believes the gospel based on the evidence or he does not.And yes,the Lord "reveals" the truth to us through the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit(1Pet.1:12;1Thess.1:5).However,some men "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts7:51) and never come to the knowledge of the truth.
However,those that do not resist the Holy Spririt consider the evidence and make a determination as to whether or not it is true based on their reason":
"And Paul,as his manner was,went into them,and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).
Paul "reasoned" with them and his evidence was the "gospel" itself and other EVIDENCE contained in the OT Scriptures.
"And he (Paul) REASONED in the synagogue every sabbath,and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks"(Acts18:4).
And when he had "reasoned" with the Jews at Berea,they searced the Scriptures looking for the EVIDENCE as to whether or not what Paul said was true or not:
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(ACts17:11,12).
So the Holy Scriptures make it plain that one "believes" based upon his "reasoning" as to whether or not the evidence presented is true or not
And that is not a function of the "will".One cannot "will" himself to believe anything that he does not believe is true.
And you say that there is no room for evidence.Well,if that is the case why did those at Berea "search the Scriptures daily,whether those things were true" if there is no room for evidence?
And when one "believes" the gospel and has faith,he knows that the EVIDENCE presented to him is true--"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the EVIDENCE of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).
It is not that my ideas are "convoluted",as you say,but instead you only prove that you do not even understand even the most elementary things of God.
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,ye have need that one teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God,and are become such as have need of milk,and not of solid food"(Heb.5:12).
In His grace,--Jerry
You continue to contradict yourself. Look at what you are saying Jerry.
First you say you can not will yourself to believe the gospel (I agree).
Secondly, you say belief is based on evidence (I disagree, and so does scripture).
The contradiction is between 'belief based on evidence' and 'belief NOT based on will'. As I showed you in my last post, for a belief to be based on evidence, it must be based on our will, insofar as we must will to listen to the Gospel, will to weigh the 'evidence', and will to make a decision to believe or not believe. So your own reasoning here contradicts what you said earlier, that we don't believe based on our will.
There is much scripture that testifies against your 'belief based on evidence' and substantiates my belief that we can only 'believe in the gospel by the grace of God':
'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)
'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Scripture is very clear that it is by God's will, not 'evidence' by which we come to believe in the Gospel. We believe in the Gospel BY THE GRACE OF GOD, not by 'evidence' Jerry. You know it, so admit your theory of 'belief based on evidence' is erroneous. Don't make me look like a fool for defending you when Apollos accused you of 'intellectual dishonesty'.
If it is only by God´s will that we come to believe the gospel,then why are not ALL men saved?After all,He wants all men to be saved:
"The Lord...is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should persh,but that all should come to epentance"(2Pet.3:9).
Does He only will" that some will be saved?
And you only show your confusion when you say that belief is NOT based on evidence.Of course you disregarded the Scriptures which state EXPLICITLY that Paul REASONED with men out of the Scriptures.You also ignored the passage that said that those in Berea searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not.
They were searching the Scriptures in order to find if what Paul was preaching was supported by evidence.
You jst will not believe the plain ord of Scriptue.You just ignore all the words that prove that Paul was REASONING with men by using the Scriptures as His evidence.
If it is only by God´s will that we come to believe the gospel,then why are not ALL men saved?After all,He wants all men to be saved:
"The Lord...is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should persh,but that all should come to epentance"(2Pet.3:9).
Does He only will" that some will be saved?
By our will we choose to cooperate with grace, obeying God's commands, or disobeying them. The grace is available to all, but without the cooperation of man's will to obey God, then you will not be saved.
However, our initial call to faith in the gospel relies exclusively on grace. Jesus told us no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. So, no matter what 'evidence' there may be, our belief in God is by grace. Scripture tells us this in no uncertain terms:
'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)
'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
It is by the Son's will, not our's Jerry, that we can come to the Gospel.
Quote:
And you only show your confusion when you say that belief is NOT based on evidence.Of course you disregarded the Scriptures which state EXPLICITLY that Paul REASONED with men out of the Scriptures.You also ignored the passage that said that those in Berea searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not.
They were searching the Scriptures in order to find if what Paul was preaching was supported by evidence.
No matter how much 'evidence' Paul presented to the Bereans, without the grace of God they could not believe it. If it were not God's will the Bereans believed Paul, they would not have believed any of Paul's evidence. If Jesus had not chosen to REVEAL the Father to the Bereans, they would never have been able to accept Paul's teaching, regardless of what 'evidence' he presented.
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You jst will not believe the plain ord of Scriptue.You just ignore all the words that prove that Paul was REASONING with men by using the Scriptures as His evidence.
You just do not UNDERSTAND the plain word of scripture. 'No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him'. It's very easy to understand. And it does not conflict with Paul arguing from the Hebrew scriptures with the Bereans to show them Christ was foretold in the OT.
We can't believe in the Gospel no matter what 'evidence' is presented UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS US. Only the people TO WHOM THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM can believe in God.
Your 16th century man-made theology just doesn't coalesce with scripture. You have to explain away, ignore, and manipulate scripture to make any of your unorthodox beliefs seemingly fit. Throw these man-made notions away Jerry, and come to the scriptural truth.
Earlier I agreed with you that it is only by God´s grace that we are ever saved.It is only by the grace of God that one ever hears the "gospel of salvation."It is only by His grace that He even "reveals" the truth to us.
But once the truth is revealed to us,it is up to us to "believe" it.
And even though He "reveals" the truth,not all believe Him.
And the verses which you keep avoiding proves that it is up to man to "believe",and that "faith" comes by the evidence contained in the Holy Scriptures:
"So,then,faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God"(Ro.10:17).
And that is exactly what we see in regard to those whom Paul preached to.He "reasoned" with them out of the Scriptures:
"And Paul,as his manner was,went in unto them,and three sabbaths days REASONED WITH THEM OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES"(Acts17:2).
But since that does not fit your scheme of things,you just IGNORE wht is so plainly said.
"These were more noble than those at Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(Acts17:11,12).
They were searching the Scriptures to find if there was any Scriptual evidence to support what Paul had told them.Why else do you suppose that they would be searching the Scriptures?
And after they did search the Scriptures,some of them did indeed find EVIDENCE that Paul was preaching the truth."Therefore,many of them believed".
Of course you that follow the church at Rome have no need to search the Scriptures.You believe that what the church says as to the meaning of Scripture no matter what the Scriptures actually say.In your opinion the church is the final authority as to the meaning of the Scriptures,so anything in the Scriptures that is in conflict with what the church says have no meaning to you.
And that is why you will not address these verses in regard to the fact that Paul "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).
You believe that this is obviously wrong because it is in conflict what your church says.
Earlier I agreed with you that it is only by God´s grace that we are ever saved.It is only by the grace of God that one ever hears the "gospel of salvation."It is only by His grace that He even "reveals" the truth to us.
But once the truth is revealed to us,it is up to us to "believe" it.
Here you argue that 'it is up to us (our will) to believe it (the Gospel).
You have argued in the past that the moment we accept the Gospel we are 'born again':
Quote:
The second that he hears and believes the "gospel of his salvation" he is born of God.
And you also emphatically stated that our will is in no way involved in being born again:
Quote:
I said that man´s "will" is not involved in being born of God.
and
Quote:
Scripture declares that man´s will is not involved at all in the born again experience. When someone believes the gospel in their heart they are born of God.
So you say:
1 It is 'up to us to believe' indicating an action of our will
2 That when we believe we are 'born again'
3 But 'man's will is in no way involved in the born again experience.'
This is a perfect example of your convoluted, circular, and contradictory reasoning. It goes well with your convoluted, contradictory, man-made theology.
Do away with these man-made ideas that don't 'fit' Jerry, and come to the scriptural way of truth in Jesus Christ.
Have you reached a point on these forums that you cannot make your case without misrepresenting what I say?
I said,"It is up to us to believe it (the gospel)."
I said nothing about our "will" being involved.NOTHING!!!In fact,I have said over and over that "believing" is not a result of our will.And you have even gone so far as to agree with me.
But now you add words to my plain statement.You edit my words to a point that they no longer mean what I said.You write:
"Here you argue that 'it is up to us (our will) to believe it'(the Gospel).
You say that when I say that "it is up to us to believe" that this must mean that this is "an action of the will".But you give nothing to back up your point.Are we to believe it just because Francisco said so?Even though earlier you said that you agreed with me that "believing" is not a result of our will.
You have become so accustomed to changing the meaning of Scripture that now you think that you can also change the meaning of those with whom you are discussing the Scriptures.
You seem to have lost touch with all reality.You just cannot accept the fact that man´s "will" is not involved at all in the born again experience since that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS what the church at Rome teaches.Rome teaches that in order to be "born of God",one must submit (through his "will") to the rite of water baptism.Therefore,by Rome´s teaching,a sinner is "born of God" when through his will he submits to that rite.
But that is not according to Scripture:
"Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of God"(Jn.1:13).
Location: All things in God’s word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally".
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Smile, God loves you! -
December 5th, 2002, 10:23 AM
The religious sect known as the "Church of Christ" has many peculiar and aberrant doctrines that are contrary to the word of God. It is a most deceptive and dangerous cult. Their teaching of baptismal regeneration is an age-old heresy that has damned millions to hell, and is still doing so today.
Re: Smile, God loves you! -
December 5th, 2002, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Explosived
The religious sect known as the "Church of Christ" has many peculiar and aberrant doctrines that are contrary to the word of God. It is a most deceptive and dangerous cult. Their teaching of baptismal regeneration is an age-old heresy that has damned millions to hell, and is still doing so today.
Here is a perfect picture of a very unhappy person, probably a Baptist or Methodist; maybe even an Adventist. Probably has lost a debate or two with members of the church of Christ. Is used to misrepresenting the church of Christ. Doesn't understand what a cult is. Doesn't want to accept that the church of Christ does not teach Baptismal Regeneration nor seeks to damn millions to Hell. Doesn't understand the work of the church of Christ at all. If he did, on any of these items, he would posted positive unrefutable proof of his statements.
Location: All things in God’s word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally".
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Water Water Everywhere and not a Drop to Drink -
December 5th, 2002, 04:09 PM
Are you a Campbellite?
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For heaven's sake, do not mistake being "washed in the baptistry of the church" for being washed in the blood of Christ.
Don't YOU wind up being baptized in the "Lake of Fire" by accepting a "waterworks" based plan of salvation and rejecting salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. (Matt. 3:11; Rev. 20:15; Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 5:9; Rom. 11:6).
Re: Water Water Everywhere and not a Drop to Drink -
December 5th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Explosived
Are you a Campbellite?
----------------------------------------
For heaven's sake, do not mistake being "washed in the baptistry of the church" for being washed in the blood of Christ.
Don't YOU wind up being baptized in the "Lake of Fire" by accepting a "waterworks" based plan of salvation and rejecting salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. (Matt. 3:11; Rev. 20:15; Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 5:9; Rom. 11:6).
Quote:
Are you a Campbellite?
"Through the lives of men like Thomas and Alexander Campbell we see the value of searching the scriptures and questioning why we practice what we do religiously. Such questioning led these men to make a break with religious error and journey back to New Testament truth. Born in Antrim, Ireland, Alexander Campbell was blessed with parents of strong character. A preacher himself, Thomas Campbell was a strong disciplinarian. He read extensively himself and made it a rule that each child should sometime during the day memorize a verse of scripture to recite at evening worship. Thus Alexander early established a pattern of religious study memorizing scripture along with Brown's catechism and rich passages in Greek, Roman, French and English literature. The Campbells were members of the Presbyterian Church." Wayne Jackson, booklet, Alexander Campbell and the Church of Christ, p. 1.
Location: All things in God’s word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally".
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December 5th, 2002, 04:38 PM
If the water pipes broke and the baptistry was bone dry, would my salvation have to wait until the plumber showed up?
Job 26
2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Re: Campbellites or Water Dogs -
December 5th, 2002, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Explosived
If the water pipes broke and the baptistry was bone dry, would my salvation have to wait until the plumber showed up?
I wouldn't think so. I'd get a concerned Christian to accompany me. We'd get in a chariot and ride down the road until I found a body of water. I would say, "See here is water! What doth hender me from being baptized?" We would get out of the chariot and both of us would go down into the water where this concerned Christian would baptize me. I would then rise from the watery grave to walk in newness of life. I would then go on my way rejoicing. The concerned Christian could then return to his business.
Water Water Everywhere and not a Drop to Drink -
December 5th, 2002, 04:09 PM
Campbellites -
December 6th, 2002, 08:22 PM
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