[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You said:
You challenge me to show that baptism is a sign:

I said:
"Even if it was a "SIGN" of which you have never proven it was and never will ,on which your whole theology hangs, we do not need a sign we have the real thing."

You said:
Consider these Scriptures:
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Reply:
Read it again and pay attention to the words...."and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". The ONLY SIGN will be the death of Jesus but you say no that's not true by including water baptism as a sign.

Next:
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Reply:
Circumcision of the flesh has nothing to do with water baptism.

Next:
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Reply:
No proof for water baptism being a SIGN!

Next:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Reply:
Baptism into His death is received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

Next:
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Reply:
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if you believe the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?
There is no rhyme to your reason.

Next:
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Reply:
Do you require a SIGN other than the only SIGN which is the death of Christ.

Next:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Reply:
Note this circuimcision and baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism.

You said:
The sign of Jonah was the death & resurrection of Christ, and according to Romans 6, baptism is a sign of death to sin, and rising to new life in Christ.

Reply:
The death of Christ is the ONLY sign! Spiritual baptism the OPERATION OF GOD and is the WITNESS of the death of Christ to the inner man.

You said:
Circumcision was a sign and seal to Abraham of righteousness imputed by faith ..... not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also. (Rom. 4)

Reply:
Old testament sign of circumcision was done away with at the cross and ALL THINGS have become new and are of GOD.

You said:
We are not circumcised but we have an imputed righteousness through being circumcised in Christ, buried with him in baptism. (Romans 4 & 6, Col. 2)

Paul's discussion of baptism leads into the Jews seeking a sign, and the Greeks seeking wisdom - but Paul preaches Christ crucified, the wisdom & power of God.

Baptism into Christ is identifying with him, in his death & resurrection.

Reply:
Circumcision and baptism into His death are operations of God and have nothing to do with man obeying in the ritual of water baptism.

You said:
Water baptism is a sign of our identifying with Christ - in his death, and our benefits given by his resurrection - all his saving work, not forgetting the cleansing blood, imputed righteousness & the indwelling of his Holy Spirit.

Reply:
Again you have proven you method of throwing everything in a big pile and grabbing what you want. You than add WATER to the mix and say there I proved it. It simply will not work.

In Christ
Craig

[Ian Day]

Craig,

Replies in BOLD

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Read it again and pay attention to the words...."and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". The ONLY SIGN will be the death of Jesus but you say no that's not true by including water baptism as a sign.

Please, death AND RESURRECTION !
Note that the witnesses of the the resurrection were only pre-chosen believers. The risen Jesus never appeared to unbelievers.
It is therefore reasonable to see water baptism as the sign.

Next:
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Reply:
Circumcision of the flesh has nothing to do with water baptism.

Next:
Rom 4:23ff
Reply:
No proof for water baptism being a SIGN!

Next:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Reply:
Baptism into His death is received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

Paul's arguments from Romans 4 culminate in Romans 6, in showing that the imputed righteousness is evidenced by godly living. The sign of baptism is worthless without evident new life.

I know that true saving baptism is baptism by the Holy SPirit into Christ, but that does not mean water baptism is not commanded, & not significant.

Next:
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Reply:
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if you believe the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?
There is no rhyme to your reason.

Paul's primary commission was to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Members of his team did the baptising in water, & Paul also baptised. His message was NOT "just repent & believe, but do not get baptised in water. Water baptism is being phased out."
Paul's words are a matter of emphasis, to rebuke those who were following the one who baptised them. As if baptism in the name of Paul was significant.

Next:
22 For the Jews require a sign ...

Reply:
Do you require a SIGN other than the only SIGN which is the death of Christ.

The death AND RESURRECTION of CHrist was not a visible sign.
I do not REQUIRE A SIGN. The sign is God-commanded.

Next:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Reply:
Note this circumcision and baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism.

THere is no doubt that circumcision was a sign & seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he {Abraham} had yet] being uncircumcised.
Colossians indicates that baptism is the sign to the Christian that circumcision was to the Jew. Of course the operation of God is necessary, & the sign is worthless without the significance.

You said:
The sign of Jonah was the death & resurrection of Christ, and according to Romans 6, baptism is a sign of death to sin, and rising to new life in Christ.

Reply:
The death of Christ is the ONLY sign! Spiritual baptism the OPERATION OF GOD and is the WITNESS of the death of Christ to the inner man.
THe death of CHrist is a sign of the victory of Satan over God. Without the resurrection, all is lost.
While you forget the resurrection you are of all men most miserable.

You said:
Circumcision was a sign and seal to Abraham of righteousness imputed by faith ..... not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also. (Rom. 4)

Reply:
Old testament sign of circumcision was done away with at the cross and ALL THINGS have become new and are of GOD.

You said:
We are not circumcised but we have an imputed righteousness through being circumcised in Christ, buried with him in baptism. (Romans 4 & 6, Col. 2)

Paul's discussion of baptism leads into the Jews seeking a sign, and the Greeks seeking wisdom - but Paul preaches Christ crucified, the wisdom & power of God.

Baptism into Christ is identifying with him, in his death & resurrection.

Reply:
Circumcision and baptism into His death are operations of God and have nothing to do with man obeying in the ritual of water baptism.

You said:
Water baptism is a sign of our identifying with Christ - in his death, and our benefits given by his resurrection - all his saving work, not forgetting the cleansing blood, imputed righteousness & the indwelling of his Holy Spirit.

Reply:
Again you have proven you method of throwing everything in a big pile and grabbing what you want. You than add WATER to the mix and say there I proved it. It simply will not work.

I call it "CONSIDER THE WEIGHT OF SCRIPTURE."

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You said:
Please, death AND RESURRECTION !
Note that the witnesses of the the resurrection were only pre-chosen believers. The risen Jesus never appeared to unbelievers.
It is therefore reasonable to see water baptism as the sign.

Reply:
In case you missed the point!
The death and resurrection of Christ is the ONLY sign. You deny this by insisting the ritual of water baptism is also a sign.

Read it again and pay attention to the words...."and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

You said:
Paul's arguments from Romans 4 culminate in Romans 6, in showing that the imputed righteousness is evidenced by godly living. The sign of baptism is worthless without evident new life.

Reply:
Paul is not referring to water baptism!

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not water baptism which is a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins has been superceded by the greater witness of God and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".

Paul not once says water baptism is a SIGN!

You said:
I know that true saving baptism is baptism by the Holy SPirit into Christ, but that does not mean water baptism is not commanded, & not significant.

Reply:
Jesus never commanded water baptism!

The command of Christ was part of the new testament given after the cross. It can be clearly seen they are commanded to teach and that teaching will baptize all that believe. He did not command "them" to do the baptizing.

Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and not "add" water. This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins.

#1
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)

It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV) The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this baptism is performed by Christ when we believe.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)


#2
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)

Again, the teaching but also when one believes the word they are baptized by that word. This baptism (quickening) is received the moment one believes the word. This word of the gospel is spirit and life eternal in the new testament.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

#3
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)

Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death. He did not say remission would be in water baptism. The word of the "new" testament for remission of sins must be believed. Christ it clearly explaining how remission of sins would be received and referring to Isaiah 53 where “it is written” He was to suffer. These scriptures not once mention water baptism.

#4
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! The contrast was further revealed in that the death of Christ for remission of sins superceded water baptism....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)


Conclusion:
By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.

Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Christ Jesus did “NOT” commission the apostles to “WATER” baptize after He gave the NEW TESTAMENT for remission of sins.

You said:
Paul's primary commission was to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Members of his team did the baptising in water, & Paul also baptised. His message was NOT "just repent & believe, but do not get baptised in water. Water baptism is being phased out."
Paul's words are a matter of emphasis, to rebuke those who were following the one who baptised them. As if baptism in the name of Paul was significant.

Reply:
Again you attempt to added to scripture what is not there when you say.....Members of his team did the baptising in water. Paul said Christ sent him NOT to baptize! Paul preached the greater witness....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

You said:
The death AND RESURRECTION of CHrist was not a visible sign.
I do not REQUIRE A SIGN. The sign is God-commanded.

Reply:
The witness of water baptism has been superceded by the witness of God. It is the Spirit that witnesses in the written word and we don't need a sign.

You said:
THere is no doubt that circumcision was a sign & seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he {Abraham} had yet] being uncircumcised.
Colossians indicates that baptism is the sign to the Christian that circumcision was to the Jew. Of course the operation of God is necessary, & the sign is worthless without the significance.

Reply:
You still do get it do you! All things are of God concerning salvation. Water baptism did not replace circumcision of the flesh.
God replaced it with the circumcision made without hands. Colossians says buried with him in baptism. It does not say water! We are baptized into His death by the operation of God. The Spirit is the agent not water.

You said:
THe death of CHrist is a sign of the victory of Satan over God. Without the resurrection, all is lost.

Reply:
Amen

You said:
While you forget the resurrection you are of all men most miserable.

Reply:
Get real!

You said:
I call it "CONSIDER THE WEIGHT OF SCRIPTURE."

Reply:
I call it reading into scripture what clearly is not there!
Ian, did you notice that scripture not once says water baptism is a SIGN of what we believe!

In Christ
Craig

[rapt]

Ian:

I am consistent. Baptism DOES NOT SAVE. Disobedience shows that the sinner is NOT SAVED. Baptism is a sign to the believer & to the church. But only a sign.

Am I correct to take from this that you are saying that obedience does not save a just person, and disobedience does not damn a sinner? If baptism, being obedience, is only a sign, is sin just a sign too? Isn't that what you must conclude to be consistant, Ian?

Ian, when was Naaman the leper healed of his leprosy? When he believed Elijah? Or was it rather when he believed him IN OBEDIENCE to his commandment? Naaman was only cleansed of his leprosy once he got in the water. He had to totally forsake his own thoughts, and DO what he was told before being cleansed. Baptism is the same way. Faith can't save anyone if it's the kind that devils have, that knows the truth, but doesn't DO it. Please stop offering a false sense of security to the many who refuse to be baptised by saying baptism (obedience) does not save, and that it's only a sign that someone is already saved, for that isn't any more true than for someone to say that Naaman was healed as soon as he believed, but that his going down and dipping in the Jordan seven times was "only a sign that he believed".

As little as I desire to agree with Craig, (who's doctrine is big time heresy, as we both know assuredly), I'm sad to acknowledge that his following statement about what you believe is true:

You jump out of the water and say it is a heresy to be water baptized for salvation and then you jump back in the water and say if your not water baptized your not saved. Your confusion is evident!

Your never consistent (on baptism, but you're correct in other things) and your theology is based on your own private interpretation of which goes against the word of God. Again, it was not a heresy in the early church that water baptism saved (No, because Peter said baptism DOES save us, so it was his teaching, not a heresy). They first had to obey and then they received the Holy Ghost and were given remission. You contend the reverse and go against the word of God which applied at Pentecost.

Sadly, he's right here. But as you know, he turns coat and says that Peter's Pentacostal message is not even the New Testament gospel! So Ian, forsake this confusing, double mindedness that plagues your thinking, and just acknowledge that Peter said it right:

1 Peter 3
21
Baptism, which corresponds to (Noah's salvation from the flood), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

God gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him. Baptism is not a bath to remove body odor, it is obedience to Christ's commandment, the only way to have a clear conscience before God. One who's faith is valid will desire baptism to be had immediately, as is seen in the scripture, not some man-made way at one's leasure, and not downgrading it as if it is not connected to remission of sins. Either Peter's sermon was of the Holy Ghost or it was of the flesh. Which was it, Ian? Is remission of sins because of the blood of Christ accessed as soon as one is obedient to be baptised, or as soon as one "believes"? If the latter, then Peter was wrong in TWO places: Acts 2 and 1Pet 3:21. If he is correct, then the "faith alone" doctrine is not.

Craig:

Abraham's bosom was a holding place until Christ delivered His NEW testimony.

...to the DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES? I think not.

Water baptism was an OLD TESTAMENT ritual and had it's inception with John the Baptist "for" remission of sins!

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

The kingdom of heaven has been being preached since John, and was "at hand" only because the Messiah had come. The Kingdom of God IS the message of the New Testament, not of the old. Their's was a kingdom of the flesh, not of heaven.

Ian:

And the Jews expected water baptism to be a Messianic (or pre-Messianic) ritual:

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

That's a very good point, Ian, and the scripture you quoted is very relevant. I never thought of that before. It supports the fact that baptism is NEW TESTAMENT, NOT OLD.

But if baptism is ONLY a sign, then it would be optional, just as many churches today suppose. If it was not commanded OUTWARDLY, then surely the Lord Himself, or Paul, or some other apostle or would have said that it is unecessary, or old testament and therefore obsolete. Contrarily, we see water baptism COMMANDED time after time all through the acts of the Apostles, even the second time upon those who had been baptised in Christ's name, who had not received the Holy Spirit, since they had never heard of it (Acts 19). But all of those scriptures are completely denied by the heresy that claims that water baptism isn't a "New Testament" commandment. The blind lead the blind into the dispensational ditch, as in the following:

Craig:

To you Ian, old things have not pass away! Stop defending those old things and accept that "all things" have become new! Don't let your theology blind you from this truth.

I agree with Ian's reply to such a statement:

Ian:

Craig, please stop calling the command of Christ, and the Holy Spirit inspired obedience of the Apostles "old things."

Craig:

Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and not "add" water.

You failed to acknowledge when I posted each account throughout the book of acts where the apostles DID water baptise. You only see what you want to see and ignore what you don't want to see. Is your man made teaching so dear to you that even God's word can't tear you away from it's grip?

The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

We are baptised into Christ's DEATH. His word makes alive, and it is His word that commands water baptism. That commandment is NOT "of the flesh", nor is our fleshly filth washed by baptism, but our conscience is cleansed by our obedience to Christ's commandment.

The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this baptism is performed by Christ when we believe.

No, they baptised in water IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. The phrase "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", which Peter correctly interpreted to mean "in the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 4:12; 2:38) was used by Christ in the same way He had commonly called himself "the son of man" rather than the "Messiah, the Son of Yahweh". It was Christ's humility that makes him great, and caused God to be well pleased with Him, and to give him a name above every name. But those that know Him not use a term to baptise that He used merely used in humility, and even deny the Apostle Peter's understanding of Christ's commandment!

Jesus told his disciples that the NEW TESTAMENT was going to be preached:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

...and it indeed WAS at Pentacost!
After posting this very scritpure, Craig then affirms the truth of it, but DENIES that it was fulfilled at Pentacost! And yet with a strait face, he says Ian flip flops!

Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death.

Peter extensively alludes to Christ's death at Pentacost, even telling the Jews that THEY killed Him, but Craig denies it altogether! He says the death of Christ was NOT preached at Pentacost, and says Peter preached remission of sins merely by a bloodless water baptism!

Craig:

Conclusion:
By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.
Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Christ Jesus did “NOT” commission the apostles to “WATER” baptize for remission after He gave the NEW TESTAMENT for remission of sins.

Paul was the first man after the cross to teach the eternal message.

My conclusion:

Craig shows his double mindedness when he says Christ commissioned Peter to preach the new testament, because he denies that Peter obeyed at Jerusalem on Pentacost. He basically calls Peter a false apostle by saying that he did not believe, and that he preached "another gospel".

According to Gal 1:8,9, any other gospel could have ONLY been a false one, and accursed, yet Craig claims that it wasn't an evil doctrine, but that even though Peter was in unbelief, he preached a legitamate old testament way to get sins remitted, even AFTER the cross, that was not Christ nor the New Testament. So he shows that he does NOT believe that "all things became new at the cross" like he continually contradicts himself by saying.


Verily, verily I (rapt) say unto you, If the old testament had been sufficient for the remission of sins, then Christ died in vain.


Craig even goes so far to say that those Jews' sins at Pentacost WERE remitted by what he willfully ignorantly imagines is a Christless, bloodless gospel of Peter's unbelief, and that they were "saved", but that they did NOT receive "eternal life". Such confusion is so far fetched that after continual reproofs from scripture, I am left with nothing else to appeal to; scripture has surely not been exhausted, but I have, and enough was shown to convince any true believer of God's Word that Craig is in dire need of repentance before he will understand the gospel Peter preached is the New Testament truth for him too, that he is obligated to obey if he desires the Holy Spirit.

This is my last post in this string. Ian, email me if you need to.
I let every other gospel than Peter's (which IS the one true gospel of Christ) be accursed.

[Ian Day]

Craig, Rapt,

I don't think we are making progress, so I will make this my final submission.
My comments below are in the appropriate colour. Red comments are common.

I have to hold Bible ground against the extremes of "no water baptism" or "essential for salvation water baptism."

Baptism is a New Covenant sign, for the believer.

I cannot agree with Craig that water baptism is an Old Covenant "work" which effectively ended with the cross, and that Peter only preached it because he did not understand or believe the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. I believe that the Acts of the Apostles is the record of the Apostles carrying out the "great commission" of the Lord. I see a learning process, but NO ERROR.

It is not for us to judge the Holy Spirit inspired teaching of Peter & the Apostles, but to believe and submit to it.

As Rapt pointed out: "We are baptised into Christ's DEATH. His word makes alive, and it is His word that commands water baptism. That commandment is NOT "of the flesh", nor is our fleshly filth washed by baptism, but our conscience is cleansed by our obedience to Christ's commandment. "

Because the sign of baptism speaks to us of the saving work of Christ, and his cleansing blood.


I cannot agree with Rapt that water baptism by immersion is necessary for salvation. Baptism is for believers, and salvation is new life in Christ, expressed by repentance from sin & turning to God with faith in Christ, with baptism being a sign to the new believer of all that that the shed blood of Christ means, and to the church that the new believer is committing himself to Christ & willing to be numbered with them.

As Craig pointed out: "It is not "our" obedience [that saves] but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience [baptism] they deny the word of God and void the free gift. "

That is not saying that sinners are saved without repentance.


As long as we keep Christ as our head, "the author & finisher of our faith" and read and believe his Word, we will not fall either side of our walk with Christ, in the Spirit.

Baptism & communion show us Christ, and his saving work alone. And as saved believers, we must walk in obedience.

Craig accuses me: "Again you have proven you method of throwing everything in a big pile and grabbing what you want. You than add WATER to the mix and say there I proved it. It simply will not work. "

I believe the whole Bible, so that a weight of Scripture leads us into the truth.

Rapt accuses me: "Am I correct to take from this that you are saying that obedience does not save a just person, and disobedience does not damn a sinner? If baptism, being obedience, is only a sign, is sin just a sign too? Isn't that what you must conclude to be consistant, Ian? "

I only want to be consistent with the Word of God. Please don't make false "logical deductions" from another's belief. We believe the Scriptures, the Word of God.

Farewell, see you on other threads.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Gerald
All this from someone who insists he's gone head-to-head with otherworldly bug-uglies...

Good to see you back, Freak...

This is the 320th post on this thread, and the Bible still says:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1).

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7).

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29).

From the above it must follow that the one wh "believeth," "loveth" and doeth righteousness" is "born of God" but, "all thy commandments are righteousness," Ps 119:172. Then the one who does the commandments of God is born of God.

Are you doing the commandments of God. What about this one?
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). O, you say that baptism is not a commandment? Well, Peter didn't know that it wasn't a commandment for to the house of Cornelius Peter..."And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:48). They had received the presence of the Holy Spirit earlier, but now Peter says that they must be immersed (for that is what the Greek word means). And why, "For (in order to or into--for that is what "eis" the Greek word really means) the remission of sins. Sins are remitted to God after the baptismal cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ (Acts 22:16) Zacheriah once prophesied "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." (Zach 13:1). When the Roman soilder opened the side of Jesus on the cross, a "fountain" of the blood and water of Jesus Christ came forth, for cleansing from sin--to the Jew first, but also to the Gentile (Romans 1:16; Romans 2:10). Have you been cleansed in the "fountain". Be baptized (immersed) in faith of the scriptures, in order that your sins may be forgiven.

JustAChristian

[c.moore]

Hello Hopeof Glory
I like you post you got it going on with the truth.
The soiritual baptism is that which brings salvation.

AMEN.

Ian day you also have the truth and knows what the bible is saying about the baptism.

I have this same disscusion with the cult mormons they stand on this water baptism theololgy.

I pray other christian will get the right revalation of the bible.
peace

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak,"

You said, "Salvation is by faith and faith alone." And you cited several scriptures pertaining to salvation, saying that none of them mentioned baptism.

Let's take one of those verses you cited and use YOUR OWN reasoning and see where it takes us:

You cited Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And you said that baptism is not mentioned in those words, therefore, you reason, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Those words do not mention REPENTANCE either. So according to YOUR reasoning, repentance is NOT necessary for salvation either. And, according to your reasoning, neither is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ necessary for salvation, because they are not mentioned at all in Acts 16:31 either!

Your use of the scriptures is erroneous, "Freak." You need to read and apply ALL scriptures in the N. T. that pertain to our salvation, not just a few.

You believe and teach that baptism does not save a person. But the apostle Peter, SPEAKING BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, said: "BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU" (1 Pet. 3:21). Therefore, it is YOU, not the advocates of baptism, who is speaking lies and advocating false doctrine! Your view, and your statements, are diametrically opposed to plain statements of truth in God's word about baptism and its relationship to salvation.

I hope you will give extend and careful consideration to these things, "Freak."

[servantofChrist]

I have a question for all of you who say it is "spiritual" baptism and not "water" baptism that saves a person.

Do you mean, by "spiritual" baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[Freak]

Servant,

Perhaps it would do you some good if you actually dealt with the many veress I provided in my first post, instead of highlighting the one. It will open your eyes to the truth that justification is by faith alone.

In 1 Corinthians 15 the Apostle Paul clearly demonstrates that the Gospel does not include baptism but rather the death, the burial, and resurrection. And this Gospel is what saves you according to Paul (Romans 1:16).

Now deal with this....

[Jaltus]

soC,

I believe that is what they mean. Baptism of the Spirit occurs at rebirth, at the moment of salvation.

[JustAChristian]

There are many factors that the New Testament says saves or justifies us. It is God that justifies (Rom 8:33). It is Christ that saves us from our sins (Matt. 1:21). It is by the Spirit of God we are justified (1 Cor 6:11). Then it is by the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), the grace of God (Rom. 3:24), the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-2), by Gods mercy (titus 3:4-5) and through our faith and hope (Rom. 5:5:1; rom 8:24). We are justified by our works (James 2:24) and by baptism (1 Peter 3:19-21). Most assuredly, we are NOT saved by faith alone.

Though the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith--saved by faith--faith is not the Savior. Christ is the Savior. Faith is means to reach the end--salvation in Christ. Man is saved by repentance, but repentance is not the Savior; it, too, is a means to the end--salvation in Christ. Man is saved by the confession, also by baptrism, yet these connot be Saviors. The Savior is a person, a being. Faith, repentance, confession and baptism are acts performed which are necessary to reach salvation in Christ the Savior.

JustAChristian

[Freak]

Yes, faith is in a person we know as the Lord Jesus Christ. This alone saves you not water baptism.

[servantofChrist]

Hello "Freak":

You contradicted yourself. You need to go off somewhere and have a talk with the two of you so both of you will speak the same thing!

You said that salvation is by "faith and faith alone." Then you immediately appealed to 1 Cor. 15:1-3, saying that the definition of the "gospel" there does not say anything about baptism.

First of all, If salvation is by "faith and faith ALONE" [your own words], then the gospel has nothing to do with our salvation because the gospel comes from God, whereas "faith," which you say "alone" saves us, comes from us.

What you are unwittingly saying is, God has nothing to do with our salvation because it is by "faith AND FAITH ALONE." And since faith is MAN'S part in the matter, and you say we are saved by it "alone," the inescapable consequence of your view is, we save ourselves and God has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation!

Secondly, you cite 1 Cor. 15:1-3 as proof that baptism is not required for salvation simply because baptism is not mentioned in this one passage. If that is true, then neither is repentance necessary to be saved because it is not mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:1-3 either!

To reiterate your own words - Let's see you deal with that!

[servantofChrist]

Hey Freak, let's look at your "faith and faith alone" view from another angle, by citing it directly with a quotation from the Bible and comparing, or, I should say, contrasting, the two:


Freak:

A man is saved by "faith and faith alone."


The New Testament:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(Jas. 2:24)


Question: Who should everyone believe? "Freak" or the New Testament (God's word)?