[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Kevin
I will responce to the last post after this teaching I think you missed and don`t understand about being saved, and doing commandment works for salvation.

I look forward to your response. I just hope you do the courtesy of responding specifically to my proof texts.

And incidentally, I didn't miss anything. I understand perfectly well how to be saved. I'm not the one who gives credence to part of the Bible, instead of the whole, you are. You continually run to the verses that only speak about faith, while pretending that the other verses which speak about obedience doesn't exist.

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
C.Moore,



I look forward to your response. I just hope you do the courtesy of responding specifically to my proof texts.

And incidentally, I didn't miss anything. I understand perfectly well how to be saved. I'm not the one who gives credence to part of the Bible, instead of the whole, you are. You continually run to the verses that only speak about faith, while pretending that the other verses which speak about obedience doesn't exist.

Quote c.moore
I see you know how to get baptized and do works, but the understanding on your righteousness I think you missed this point on what the bible says.
The same on the understanding of your justification and being just instead of trying to get Just.
Receiving and accepting the free gift of righteousness which was done for us 2000 year is the key and door the heaven and everlasting life says my bible.
Do you need more proof about this I believe the whole bible as well, not just the water baptism verses only which I do respect but I know the quality of righteousness and being just, and saved before and external baptism.
When we accept the blood of Jesus and his gift of righteousness , will the water baptism make us more righteous and just?
Also don`t just run to the baptism scriptures and the command verse use the whole truth as well.

God bless

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

I see you know how to get baptized and do works, but the understanding on your righteousness I think you missed this point on what the bible says.

All talk. You have yet to disprove my proof texts. I haven't missed any points. I understand salvation perfectly - belief and obedience to His word.

Receiving and accepting the free gift of righteousness which was done for us 2000 year is the key and door the heaven and everlasting life says my bible.

Part of accepting salvation is obeying God. If you aren't obedient to God, you haven't accepted Him. If you love Him, then keep His commandments. If you don't keep His commandments, you don't love Him. We are to be doers of the word, NOT just believers of it (James 1:22).

Also don`t just run to the baptism scriptures and the command verse use the whole truth as well.

Can you be any more hypocritical, C.Moore? You should really get your facts straight and open your eyes. SHOW ME WHERE I DENIED THAT FAITH PLAYS A ROLE IN OUR SALVATION. You can't. I'm the one who gives credence to BOTH faith and works for salvation. YOU are the one who says faith ONLY, which is not what the Bible says. I have provided multiple scriptures showing that obedience plays a role in our salvation, but you don't accept what they say and run to your faith scriptures. When will you address them? When?

[revhleonard]

We are saved by grace through Faith, and grace through Faith alone. Works of obedience are imputed to us as righteousness. Remember Abraham's act of obedience in sacrificing Issiac did not save him, but was imputed to him as righteousness.

Amazing grace. Alone. Nada mas. Es todo.

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Kevin
Mark,



I can't really back this with scripture, but given the context of women's role in the church, I wouldn't want to be baptized by a woman if at all possible. Kev ducks in preparation of things to be thrown at him...

Mark brings up an interesting point. Paul wrote that women were not to userp authority over the man (1 Tim 2:12). To what extent Priscilla assisted in converting Apollos at Ephesus (Acts 18:26) is not sure. I don't think she would have baptized him, though. I would accept this, based on the essentially of baptism, if a situation should warrant itself where a non-believer is taught by a Christian woman and he wanted to be baptized, but a Christian man could not be found or accessed, since the command is to be obeyed, it would seem to be the only situation where a woman could baptize a man. I know this hypothetical, but in some middle eastern countries, it would not be exceptional, given the fact that a lot of women are out there teaching.

JustAChristian

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by revhleonard
We are saved by grace through Faith, and grace through Faith alone. Works of obedience are imputed to us as righteousness. Remember Abraham's act of obedience in sacrificing Issiac did not save him, but was imputed to him as righteousness.

Amazing grace. Alone. Nada mas. Es todo.

What happens to the person who obeys baptism. Is righteousness imputed to him? If not, why not?

Quelque n'est pas de la foi est péché. Est n'étant pas immergé sinful. Le baptême est nécessaire pour être sauvé.

JustAChristian

[Kevin]

revhleonard,

Nobody, including myself, has denied that we are saved by the grace of God. The debate is how we obtain that saving grace. You say faith alone without addressing any of my, or others, proof texts showing that obedience to God's word is necessary for salvation (which includes baptism). I invite you to address them.

Faith alone is dead to God. Faith with works of obedience is alive to God. James 2 makes that quite clear. There are also many other examples that clearly show obedience playing a role in salvation.

[revhleonard]

Ok Kevin:
I will address your points. Now sit down and listen!!!!!

I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID!!!!

[Kevin]

revhleonard,

I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID!!!!

Errr.... oh.

We are saved by grace through Faith, and grace through Faith alone.

This is why I asked you to respond to my proofs, because I don't believe that we get our grace through faith "alone". I believe we recieve His grace if we meet the requirements that He set, which is more than faith only.

[revhleonard]

Genuine faith will always produce good works. They are inseperable.

[c.moore]

Quote:c.mooreThen what does this mean: Ro:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Quote Kevin
It means exactly what it says. And just HOW do you think we GET eternal life through Jesus Christ? 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism!

Quote c.moore
You ask how do you get eternal life? We get it by receiving ,or accepting the resurection through Jesus Christ, according also to Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1Pe:3:20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This scripture is showing that God was giving a chance for the unbeleivers to be save but only eight was saved because first and most of all they believed and trusted in God, and I want you to see that they was saved or put their trust in God by getting into the boat before the rain and water came. They have received the Words of the Lord even though they never seen rain, so they had to believe first to get saved and this is the most important key. Notice the water came after they were in the boat not before. And they was convince and trusted God before the flood.
1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Notice in this verse Kevin what is quoted in the bible: The( like figure) whereunto even baptism or in the living bible says: That ,by the way, is what baptism pictures for us:In baptism we( show) that we (have been saved) from death.
This is proof that baptism is only a symbol , and I think you know what is figure and figure is not the real thing, and a picture is not the real thing it is only an Image of something that is real, and the real thing in the kingdom of God is the invisible things, or the Spiritual things like the spiritual baptism, being baptized in the blood of Jesus Christ praise God. Notice again in the scripture you quoted from the bible says: the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: this is what saves you Kevin according to your scripture, and in the living bible says: we (have been saved) from death ,not we will get save because of baptism, again it explained that we are already saved before the water baptism pass tence and the baptism is giving us a good figure of our belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I have ask God please give me the wisdom to explain your truth to those who are decieved, and God told me I will do it not that C.Moore get the glory and show c.moore is right , but God will show His truth because God loves you and the truth will set you free , and God said: If you don`t believe the Word of God and you can`t hear His vioce God love is so great he will not give up on you and God will use other pastors like Rev leanor, and myself, and others, and if you still won`t accept God perfect will, God might send a donkey or a dog to tell you the truth about real salvation and God`s grace without works.
I am not teaching doctrine I am just telling you the good news Kevin and anyone else caught up in this baptism doctrine saves.
I will continue on answering your post Kevin one by one the Holy Spirit and myself will try to show you the truth with LOVE, my brother.

God Bless you
peace

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by c.moore
Quote:c.mooreThen what does this mean: Ro:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Quote Kevin
It means exactly what it says. And just HOW do you think we GET eternal life through Jesus Christ? 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism!

Quote c.moore
You ask how do you get eternal life? We get it by receiving ,or accepting the resurection through Jesus Christ, according also to Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1Pe:3:20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This scripture is showing that God was giving a chance for the unbeleivers to be save but only eight was saved because first and most of all they believed and trusted in God, and I want you to see that they was saved or put their trust in God by getting into the boat before the rain and water came. They have received the Words of the Lord even though they never seen rain, so they had to believe first to get saved and this is the most important key. Notice the water came after they were in the boat not before. And they was convince and trusted God before the flood.
1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Notice in this verse Kevin what is quoted in the bible: The( like figure) whereunto even baptism or in the living bible says: That ,by the way, is what baptism pictures for us:In baptism we( show) that we (have been saved) from death.
This is proof that baptism is only a symbol , and I think you know what is figure and figure is not the real thing, and a picture is not the real thing it is only an Image of something that is real, and the real thing in the kingdom of God is the invisible things, or the Spiritual things like the spiritual baptism, being baptized in the blood of Jesus Christ praise God. Notice again in the scripture you quoted from the bible says: the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: this is what saves you Kevin according to your scripture, and in the living bible says: we (have been saved) from death ,not we will get save because of baptism, again it explained that we are already saved before the water baptism pass tence and the baptism is giving us a good figure of our belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I have ask God please give me the wisdom to explain your truth to those who are decieved, and God told me I will do it not that C.Moore get the glory and show c.moore is right , but God will show His truth because God loves you and the truth will set you free , and God said: If you don`t believe the Word of God and you can`t hear His vioce God love is so great he will not give up on you and God will use other pastors like Rev leanor, and myself, and others, and if you still won`t accept God perfect will, God might send a donkey or a dog to tell you the truth about real salvation and God`s grace without works.
I am not teaching doctrine I am just telling you the good news Kevin and anyone else caught up in this baptism doctrine saves.
I will continue on answering your post Kevin one by one the Holy Spirit and myself will try to show you the truth with LOVE, my brother.

God Bless you
peace

C.Moore

What Do you really know about water baptism. It is such a vital subject, but one of the most discounted doctrines taught in the Bible. This is a second part of the subject of water baptism that I began in our last lesson.

Recounting some of the important fact that I have already said, If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ. I invite you to read Ephesians 1:3 and Galatians 3:27. If you find that all spiritual blessings are in Christ, and that we are baptized into Christ, then you must conclude that since salvation is a spiritual blessing obtained in Christ, then we are not saved until we are baptized into Christ.

We have learned that the Bible actually tells us that baptism saves us. Read for yourself in 1 Peter 3:20.21. Actually anytime baptism is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always comes first, See Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, and Act 22:16.
If you take the position that one is saved at the point of faith only, then you have to throw out the scriptures on repentance, confession, and baptism. The Bible in fact teaches that we are not saved by faith only (see James 2:17-20).

Every act of conversion in the book of Acts culminated in the people being baptized. There is not an exception. In fact, each had to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized before they were saved. How do I know this? It’s because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Heb. 13:8). God does not have a special preference for anyone. All are treated the same under the law of Christ (Acts 10:34-35; Gal. 3:28).
Infant baptism by means of sprinkling, is popular in some denominations, but there is not a single example of infant baptism. Some believe that infants are born with sin that they inherited from Adam. However the Bible plainly teaches that sin is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20). “ The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” There is no sound reason to believe infants have sins. Moses also wrote what God said after the flood, “…And the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth…” Whatever you read in the Bible, it must be interpreted in light of these biblical references in order to harmonize totally. When one is baptized in the scriptures, it is a total voluntary acts performed after a confession; actual or implied. Infants can not perform this voluntary act of obedience, therefore baptism is not for infants. In fact sprinkling for Baptism is not scriptural.

Baptism is shown in the Bible to be by immersion ( Romans 6:3-5). It is clearly shown to be a burial in a watery grave to rise to walk in newness of life. Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). If we deny the purpose of baptism, we deny so many verses of scripture and say that we can be,

a. ...saved without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
b. ...saved without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
c. ...saved without the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
d. ...saved without the blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
e. ...saved without the washing away of sins (Acts 3:19)
f. ...saved without entering Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3).
g. ...saved without the death & blood of Christ (Rom. 6:3)
h. ...saved without the resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:4).
i. ...saved without walking in newness of life (Rom. 6:4).
j. ...saved without being redeemed (Eph. 1:7).
k. ...saved without being in Christ (Gal 3:26-27).
l. ...saved without being a child of God (Eph. 1:3).
m. ...saved without putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27).


JustAChristian

[c.moore]

Quotec.moore:How about this scripture Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


quote: Kevin
This is speaking about Israel, and that their rejection is not total. It explains how they are not saved by the works of the Law - the Mosaic Law that they were under. You keep trying to show scripture that is speaking about not being under the Mosaic Law anymore and trying to use it to show that we don't have to keep Christ's commandments for salvation. Do you really think that Christ would give us His commandments only for His apostles to go around saying that obeying Christ's commandments isn't important?

And for you to assert that works of obedience (to Christ - NOT the Mosaic Law), has nothing to do with our salvation, then Jesus must be confused. He personally gave an illustration in Matt. 25:41-46 that show Him damning people to hell because of their lack of good works towards man.

Quote:c.moore
You mention kevin , Do you really think that Christ would give us His commandments only for His apostles to go around saying that obeying Christ's commandments isn't important? I know it is important to obey but it is no way salvation, or a working merit point system to earn salvation. You keep kicking grace out the window, and you try to do your own works of salvation by working to obey ,and work to keep the laws, and work to keep the golden rules ,and you try to work to keep the commandments to earn yourself into the family of God. Ther bible says we are the elected, or chosen into the family of God and that is without any works like being adopted as a child into a family, and you are just picked out, Not earn out, and we are adopted JEWS and we are children of Abraham according to Ro:11:5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the( election of grace.)
( Ro:11:17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root) and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro:11:18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ro:11:19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro:11:20: Well; (because of unbelief they were broken off,) and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro:11:21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Ro:11:22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Ro:11:23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Ro:11:24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Ro:11:25: For I would not,( brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
So you can see plainly that we are gentile grafted into the family of the Jewish family, belonging to Israel.This grafting belong to us as well as the Jews wgen they start to believe and trust in Jesus Christ.


Quote:c.mooreYou said baptism is work and you agree about this truth right?


Quote kevin
I agree that baptism is a work, if that's what you mean.

Quote :c.moore
Then if baptism is work and it`s a part of salvation, and we are saved by grace not by works, then what is mean by this: Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
After getting the understanding about what Roman 11 is saying about you might understand Rom 11:6. In the new king James Bible the heading for Rom11 is Jews and Gentile grafted into one tree.
Just something to chech out and study Kevin.
I`ll be back

God Bless

[c.moore]

Hello JustAChristian

Quote :c.moore
When did we become sinners ?

When is the blood of Jesus used in salvation or being saved?

Is the Blood of Jesus in effect after the water baptism or before on us?

When are we righteous, after baptism or before?

When are we Justifyed ,after baptism or before?

When are we forgiven of our sins , after baptism or before?

Can a person enter Heaven if he is righteous through Jesus Christ?

can a person enter heaven if he is just through Jesus christ?

When does a person recieve the Holy Spirit?

I hope to here from you soon

peace

[c.moore]

Quote:What happens to the grace that gives us eternal life?


Quote kevin
What do you mean? Grace is there for anyone who meets the conditions that God instituted - Faith and obedience to His Son's commandments.

It is those who do His commandments that will have rights to the tree of life (Rev. 22:14). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). But you go ahead and keep pretending like these verses don't exist or don't actually mean what they say they do. I find it sad that you only want to give credence to the verses which speak about faith, and not to the ones that mention obedience as well.

Quote c.moore
The bibles say: 2Co:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co:5:18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co:5:19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co:5:20: Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co:5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;( that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.)
Eph:2:1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph:2:2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph:2:3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph:2:4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, (hath quickened us together with Christ,) (by grace ye are saved
Eph:2:6: And hath raised us up together, and (made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ JesusJ
1Co:1:2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,( to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints),(with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ) our Lord, both theirs and ours:
no baptism here just call on the name and notice we are saints.
1Co:1:3: (Grace be unto you,) and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co:1:4: I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Jas:2:23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,( Abraham believed God,) and it was imputed (unto him for righteousnessJ and he was called the Friend of God.
Abraham is a good example of righteousness and belief that counted bfore God not the works.
Ro:7:5: For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Ro:7:6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the lett

God Bless