[revhleonard]

I am not saved by the blood, but it does pay my sin debt.
I am not saved by baptism, although it is an act of obedience.
My Savior is alive and well, sitting at the right hand of The father.
I am saved through his plan, yet not by his plan. I am saved by him. Jesus is my Savior.

[Kevin]

c.moore,

You ask how do you get eternal life? We get it by receiving ,or accepting the resurection through Jesus Christ, according also to Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So, we get it from accepting the gospel, right? Don't you think that part of accepting it is obeying it's commandments? The command to be baptized is part of the gospel message. If you don't obey it, your not accepting what was preached. There are many examples of conversion in the Bible, and they all included baptism. Baptism is part of the message. Where is an example of a faith only conversion, after the chruch was instituted? Where?

Regarding Romans 4:5, do you not realize that he is referring to works of the law (the Mosaic Law) which we are NOT under? It's like you search for any verse in the Bible that refers to not doing works and try to apply it towards saying that it not necessary to obey Christ's commandments. You are not dividing the Bible correctly.

If you'd just think about it, it's quite rediculous. Jesus comes along and gives people commandments that they are to follow for salvation. Then, in your view, Paul comes along and just says believe, implying that obedience doesn't play a role in our salvation, despite the words of Jesus. Think about what you are saying. You need to understand the difference between the works of the law (which you keep referring to), and the works of obedience, as commanded by Christ. Not one time would Paul, or any other apostle, claim that one doesn't need to obey Christ's commandments. Never.

1Pe:3:20:... and I want you to see that they was saved or put their trust in God by getting into the boat before the rain and water came.

They were saved "before" getting into the ark? Not even. If they hadn't obeyed God, Noah wouldn't have built the ark in the first place. If they didn't get into the ark, they would have drown with everybody else. I'll agree that it was because of their faith in God that they obyed what He told them to do, but belief only didn't save them... it was their faith and obedience that saved them. Do you actually believe that they could have believed and not obyed God (not building the ark or getting into it), and still be saved?

1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Yes, the like figure, baptism, now saves us through the resurrection of Jesus.

Notice in this verse Kevin what is quoted in the bible: The( like figure) whereunto even baptism or in the living bible says: That ,by the way, is what baptism pictures for us:In baptism we( show) that we (have been saved) from death.

1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism now saves us. You are trying to say that we are saved before we do the thing that now saves us - baptism. There is nothing in there that even hints they we are saved before baptism, which now saves us... the antitype/figuretype as opposed to the flood waters. Just as the flood saved them from the perverse generations, the antitype, baptism, now saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is proof that baptism is only a symbol , and I think you know what is figure and figure is not the real thing

This just shows that you don't understand what it's talkaing about when it mentions the antitype, or figure type. It's simply comparing the salvation by means of flood waters to the figure type (something that resembles another... it's countertype) to that which now saves us, baptism. In a nutshell, Peter is saying that just as the flood waters saved 8 souls, baptism now saves us. Nothing in there that remotely hints at it being a symbol of us already being saved. It would go directly against Romans 6 where Paul says that it is he who has died with Christ through baptism are the ones who have been freed from sin (being saved). You CAN'T be saved before dying with Him through baptism, because you're NOT free from sin UNITL you have died with Him through baptism.

Notice again in the scripture you quoted from the bible says: the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

Simply put, baptism is commanded of us. By us complying with the command to be baptized, we can approach God with confidence and a clear conscience towards God, because we have obeyed His command to be baptized and put away our old man of sin as spoken of in Romans 6. Knowing that God commanded baptism, and knowing what it does for us, that it frees us from sin, would somebody have a good conscience if they didn't obey this command? No.

A great example of somebody expressing their good conscience towards God can be found in Acts 8:39. After Philip baptized the eunuch, he went on his way, rejoicing. He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard and obeyed the gospel.

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: this is what saves you Kevin according to your scripture

Re-read the scripture. It says that baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. According to that verse, baptism is the action spoken of that now saves us... it saves us through the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection of Christ won't do you any good unless you have died with Him though baptism, thus freeing yourself from sin, walking in the newness of life.

I have ask God please give me the wisdom to explain your truth to those who are decieved

Decieved? No deception here. Test the spirits, C.Moore. Your beliefs simply are not stacking up to the word of God.

I know it is important to obey but it is no way salvation

Ok, then please answer the following questions:

Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.

Who will have rights to the tree of Life? _________________

Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

To whom is Jesus the author of eternal salvation? _________________ Is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to those who don't obey Him?_____________________

Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

What will happen to those who "do not obey the truth"? ________________

John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

Those who ____________ shall never see death. Who WILL see death? ________________

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Is the truth in someone who claims to know Him and does not keep His commandments? ______ What does verse 4 call those who claim to know Him and do not keep His comandments? ____________

1 John 2:17
17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Who will abide forever? ____________________ Who will NOT abide forever?__________________

Shall I go on? After answering those questions, how do you reconcile your viewpoint that obeying His commandments is not a salvation issue, in light of the content of these verses?

Then if baptism is work and it`s a part of salvation, and we are saved by grace not by works, then what is mean by this: Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again, you are trying to use a passage that speaks about works of the MOSIAC LAW. We are not under the Mosaic Law, we are under grace, which is exactly what Paul is saying. That grace came with conditions that has to be met before we can have that grace. God set those conditions not me!

As I said before, works of obedience does play a role in our salvation, or how would you explain the fact that the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into HELL because of their lack of good works towards other people? Were they or were they not thrown in Hell because of their lack of good works? Answer this very simple question, C.Moore! Answer it... I dare you.

Quote kevin
What do you mean? Grace is there for anyone who meets the conditions that God instituted - Faith and obedience to His Son's commandments.

It is those who do His commandments that will have rights to the tree of life (Rev. 22:14). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). But you go ahead and keep pretending like these verses don't exist or don't actually mean what they say they do. I find it sad that you only want to give credence to the verses which speak about faith, and not to the ones that mention obedience as well.

Quote c.moore
The bibles say: 2Co:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Look at the first verse in your answer to me (quoted above). It begins with: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What's the condition here? IF therefore any man is in Christ. Galatians 3:27 clearly says that it is those who have been baptized have put on Christ, which means that we are "in Christ". Baptism does this, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

Now look at the second part of that verse: he is a new creature: old things are passed away. Sound familiar? Romans 6, which speaks about baptism and what it does for us!!!! 2 Corinthians 5:17 says that he is a new creation, Romans 6:4 says that we will walk in the newness of life -- a NEW CREATION -- SAME THING!

2 Cor 5:17 speaks about the old things have passed away. Romans 6:6 speaks about how are old man of sin is done away with... SAME THING!


Conclusion: BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! (1 Peter 3:21)

[Evangelion]

LOL...

Always a pleasure to see you at work, Kevin.

[Kevin]

Thanks Evangelion! Heh... my post should make a little more sense now. It had some dreadful formatting errors in it. Eeeks!

[Kevin]

revhleonard,

I am not saved by baptism, although it is an act of obedience.

I disagree with this! I've covered this very thing in my response above to c.moore. I invite you to address to proofs.

[revhleonard]

I have read what you posted to C-More, and i still diasgree. I have considered your proofs, and i still disagree. No biggie, i just disagree.

[Kevin]

revhleonard,

I have read what you posted to C-More, and i still diasgree. I have considered your proofs, and i still disagree. No biggie, i just disagree.

Ok.

[c.moore]

kevin

So, we get it from accepting the gospel, right? Don't you think that part of accepting it is obeying it's commandments?

Quote :c.moore
Ja that right just accepting.
Yes, but obeying commandments is not salvation.

Where is an example of a faith only conversion, after the chruch was instituted? Where?

Quote c.moore
I might sound like the Rev Leanord, but here we go Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Regarding Romans 4:5, do you not realize that he is referring to works of the law (the Mosaic Law) which we are NOT under? It's like you search for any verse in the Bible that refers to not doing works and try to apply it towards saying that it not necessary to obey Christ's commandments. You are not dividing the Bible correctly.

Quote c.moore
that why we are under grace.
I didn`say we should not obey Christ commandment , all I believe and agree with the bible that this is not salvation and has nothing to do with the grace of salvation or being elected righteous childrens.
This is not doctrine what I believe this is bible. sorry Kevin.

If you'd just think about it, it's quite rediculous. Jesus comes along and gives people commandments that they are to follow for salvation. Then, in your view, Paul comes along and just says believe, implying that obedience doesn't play a role in our salvation, despite the words of Jesus. Think about what you are saying. You need to understand the difference between the works of the law (which you keep referring to), and the works of obedience, as commanded by Christ. Not one time would Paul, or any other apostle, claim that one doesn't need to obey Christ's commandments. Never.

Quote c.moore
I can`t just think about it and I know it`s foolish to you because the bible says:1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again obedienece is not salvation , it the thing you do after believing and recieved the new birth.

They were saved "before" getting into the ark? Not even. If they hadn't obeyed God, Noah wouldn't have built the ark in the first place. If they didn't get into the ark, they would have drown with everybody else. I'll agree that it was because of their faith in God that they obyed what He told them to do, but belief only didn't save them... it was their faith and obedience that saved them. Do you actually believe that they could have believed and not obyed God (not building the ark or getting into it), and still be saved?

Quote c.moore
I am glad you at least admit the truth about this:I'll agree that it was because of their faith in God that they obyed what He told them to do, but belief only didn't save them... it was their faith

notice the faith came first, and without the faith nothing else can happen. Of course if I believe a chair will hold my body I will seat in the chair, but without the key thing blief alone you can not move me. You said ;
Do you actually believe that they could have believed and not obyed God (not building the ark or getting into it), and still be saved?
This is my point about the chair that I explain, first believe, and the believing will make you want to do the do, but I don`t do the do withouit belief coming first and being the most important part to make me what to work.
Remember the soldier that ask Jesus to heal his servant without any works, and Jesus said so great of FAITH have I never seen, and the manifestation toke place because of FAith only.

Yes, the like figure, baptism, now saves us through the resurrection of Jesus.

Quote
Let me get the communication right on this.
COLOR=red]What do you think through is in the verse???[/color]
I here the Jehovah witness say they go through Jesus to get to Jehovah but I found out they are going pass Jesus and really kicking Jesus to the side and they are walking proudly to God on their own works and powers.
This is why I must ask you the question.

One other question that is very important is what does the the meaning Jesus in you , and you in Jesus mean to you or the Holy Spirit IN YOU mean????

1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism now saves us. You are trying to say that we are saved before we do the thing that now saves us - baptism.

c.moore Quote
I am not trying to say, I will say it in red we are saved before baptism by faith and trust Jesus not myself.

This just shows that you don't understand what it's talkaing about when it mentions the antitype, or figure type. It's simply comparing the salvation by means of flood waters to the figure type (something that resembles another... it's countertype) to that which now saves us, baptism. In a nutshell, Peter is saying that just as the flood waters saved 8 souls, baptism now saves us. Nothing in there that remotely hints at it being a symbol of us already being saved. It would go directly against Romans 6 where Paul says that it is he who has died with Christ through baptism are the ones who have been freed from sin (being saved). You CAN'T be saved before dying with Him through baptism, because you're NOT free from sin UNITL you have died

Quote c.moore
When Can we use the Blood of Jesus to free us from sins kevin???

We do we start to believe the resurrection of Jesus after baptism???

A great example of somebody expressing their good conscience towards God can be found in Acts 8:39. After Philip baptized the eunuch, he went on his way, rejoicing. He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard and obeyed the gospel.

Quote c.moore
You said the key to the good new message of the gospel in your verse you gave and that is;He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard
The peopel followed Jesus in the thousands is because they heard praise God.
I always invite a person to get saved after they have heard the good news of the cross and about Jesus, and after they recieve Christ into their hearts I tell them about baptism and the commandment,and the obedience so they can be blessed after being saved by accepting jesus and repenting of thier sins and dieing to thier flesh before baptismo.

Decieved? No deception here. Test the spirits, C.Moore. Your beliefs simply are not stacking up to the word of God.

Quote c,moore
I am not calling you a devil or satan so don`t get me wrong Kevin because I know you are a man of God, But the devil know the bible also and he even quoted psalms 91 a verse to try to see if Jesus would spring from the temple but Jesus didn`t jump because Jesus knows the real revelations of the scripture , the deep revelation and understanding, which most christian don`t see and miss interpretate so the devil love to do this with alot of christian so he can steal destroy, and bring division among ourselves so the kingdom of God can be destroyed, the bible says a house against itself can not stand. This is my purpose is to bring us together in one understanding and in one house under one Spirit Of God.I want Jesus to look good and be right not c.moore be right ,because I am nothing without Jesus Kevin.
All wisdom ,honor, and Glory to my FATHER Jesus Christ who is my DAD.

All the scriptures you gave on obeying I agree with you and I suggest every christ should obey and do the commandments , and stay by the golden rules, but none of these thing and works can replace the free gift of recieving salvation by grace of Jesus who made us righteous 2000 years ago and payed for our sins in full and we are perfect because of Christ and any born again believer can stand boldly before the throne of God and say I am the righjteousness of God and I am justified beccause of Christ Jesus and I have the rights tothe book the life and the right to enter heaven gates, specially if that person recieved the faith of thier righteousness and right as a seed of Abraham.

All I know is the grace of Christ covers everything for us,
Like Jesus said; IT IS FINISHED

God Bless

[c.moore]

Originally posted by revhleonard
I have read what you posted to C-More, and i still diasgree. I have considered your proofs, and i still disagree. No biggie, i just disagree.

Quote
I can see why you would disagree Rev with kevin.

God Bless you and your church

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Ja that right just accepting.
Yes, but obeying commandments is not salvation.

Down towards the bottom of your post, you stated that you agreed with the verses I quoted regarding obedience. Yet, I see that you were unable to answer the simple questions I posed about them. If you took the time to answer them, you would realize that obeying His commandments plays a definite role in our salvation.

Quote:
Where is an example of a faith only conversion, after the chruch was instituted? Where?

Quote c.moore
I might sound like the Rev Leanord, but here we go Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So you can't find one. That's all you have to say. Shouldn't that raise a red flag (the answer to this question is YES). You choose to follow a doctrine in which there is NO Biblical example of.. There are plenty of conversions that I can point out that support my view.

Incidentally, about John 3:16, it doesn't do any good to believe in Him if you don't do what He says is necessary to be saved. You might as well say "I believe in you Lord, but I don't think I have to do what you say in order to be saved!". Sounds like sound logic to me!

Quote:
If you'd just think about it, it's quite rediculous. Jesus comes along and gives people commandments that they are to follow for salvation. Then, in your view, Paul comes along and just says believe, implying that obedience doesn't play a role in our salvation, despite the words of Jesus. Think about what you are saying. You need to understand the difference between the works of the law (which you keep referring to), and the works of obedience, as commanded by Christ. Not one time would Paul, or any other apostle, claim that one doesn't need to obey Christ's commandments. Never.

Quote c.moore
I can`t just think about it and I know it`s foolish to you because the bible says:1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again obedienece is not salvation , it the thing you do after believing and recieved the new birth.

So you can't think about it because that would actually cause you to test your viewpoint against what the Bible says, and you're afraid of what that conclusion might be. Sad.

Again obedienece is not salvation

Will you ever address my simple question and answer format about this very thing, or continue to sidestep it like it doesn't exist? You say you agree with the verses, yet avoid my questions about them. You have ZERO biblical evidence to show that obedience to Christ's commandments isn't necessary for salvation. I have provided MANY to support that it is necessary. Read them. Answer the simple questions. Then reconcile your answers with your view that it's not necessary to obey Christ's commandments.

Quote c.moore
I am glad you at least admit the truth about this:I'll agree that it was because of their faith in God that they obyed what He told them to do, but belief only didn't save them... it was their faith

Tsk... tsk. If you're going to quote me implying that we agree on something, don't leave out a crucial part of what I said. This is what I said: I'll agree that it was because of their faith in God that they obyed what He told them to do, but belief only didn't save them... it was their faith and obedience that saved them. I underlined what you conveniently left out.

notice the faith came first, and without the faith nothing else can happen.

And your point? I've agreed to this some time ago. I agree with you that without faith it is impossible to please God -- BUT it's not a faith that is dead unto itself, it is a faith that is alive with works of obedience.

Do you actually believe that they could have believed and not obyed God (not building the ark or getting into it), and still be saved?
This is my point about the chair that I explain, first believe, and the believing will make you want to do the do, but I don`t do the do withouit belief coming first and being the most important part to make me what to work.

Again you do not answer my simple question. Do you believe that those people would have been saved if they ONLY believed and DIDN'T obyed God's command to buid the ark? Yes or no? Simple question, can you answer it?

Quote:
Yes, the like figure, baptism, now saves us through the resurrection of Jesus.

Quote
Let me get the communication right on this.
COLOR=red]What do you think through is in the verse???[/color]

You don't know what "through" means? Baptism (the action) now saves you though (by the means of) the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The question at hand is what action do we have to do to be saved through the resurrection of Jesus Christ? What is that action????

One other question that is very important is what does the the meaning Jesus in you , and you in Jesus mean to you or the Holy Spirit IN YOU mean????

I'm not too sure exactly what you're trying to get at here. The meaning of Jesus in me is that I've believed in Him and obyed His commandments and therefore I am in His saving graces. That grace, can of course, be lost if we turn our backs on Him. We are not done deal saved until Jesus says yae or nae on judgement day.

Quote:
1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism now saves us. You are trying to say that we are saved before we do the thing that now saves us - baptism.

c.moore Quote
I am not trying to say, I will say it in red we are saved before baptism by faith and trust Jesus not myself.

And your proof texts of this is where....?

Quote c.moore
When Can we use the Blood of Jesus to free us from sins kevin???

When you've heard and obeyed the gospel.

We do we start to believe the resurrection of Jesus after baptism???

What kind of question is that? When the gospel is preached to somebody, they are (or should be) told of Jesus and the fact that He died and was resurrected. After hearing the gospel, they should obey it... being baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, just like in Acts 2:38.

Quote:
A great example of somebody expressing their good conscience towards God can be found in Acts 8:39. After Philip baptized the eunuch, he went on his way, rejoicing. He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard and obeyed the gospel.

Quote c.moore
You said the key to the good new message of the gospel in your verse you gave and that is;He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard

There you go again, leaving out crucial parts of my arguments. Here, let's see what I really said: He had a good conscience towards God because he had heard and obeyed the gospel. I underlined what you conveniently left out, again. There's no way the eunuch would have a clear conscience towards God if he heard the gospel but didn't obey it. The fact is, he heard the gospel AND obeyed it (being baptized), and then he went on his way rejoicing.

being saved by accepting jesus and repenting of thier sins and dieing to thier flesh before baptismo.

How can a person "die to thier flesh" before baptism, when it is baptism that is the action by which we die with Christ? Baptism is HOW we die with Christ, yet you assert that we die to our flesh BEFORE baptism. Where is your Biblical proof to validate this assertion? I have evidence to show that baptism is how we die with Christ (Romans 6:4). Where is yours?

I am not calling you a devil or satan so don`t get me wrong Kevin because I know you are a man of God

I understand what you are saying. It's evident that God is very important to both of us. It's just a shame we can't agree on certain things. You are a very nice individual, and I truly believe that you have the best of intentions, but the word of God is the word of God, and I will stand up for what it says.

But the devil know the bible also

Indeed he does. The fact that there are so many people who only give credence to part of the Bible instead of all of it is proof of this.

I also noticed that you totally avoided one of my questions to you, so I'll ask it again:

As I said before, works of obedience does play a role in our salvation, or how would you explain the fact that the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into HELL because of their lack of good works towards other people? Were they or were they not thrown in Hell because of their lack of good works? Answer this very simple question, C.Moore! Answer it... I dare you.

still going

[Kevin]

Pilgrimagain,

still going

It just keeps going and going... nothing can out last the Kevinator err... Energizer.

[Evangelion]

It would end a whole lot sooner if they'd only address our arguments.

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

It would end a whole lot sooner if they'd only address our arguments.

AMEN!!

[Evangelion]

Yea, verily.