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Originally Posted by The Barbarian
Jesus never promised to refound the nation of Israel. In fact, He told people not to see the Kingdom of God, because it was within them.
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This Replacement Theology which can't be proved with Scripture. Some of the arguments for this Replacement Theology:
God cut off the Jews "fixing no time limit and no end to it." Luther (Incidently, it was the writings of Luther that Hitler used to justify the murder of the Jews.) But Scripture says: "For I do not desire... that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that BLINDNESS IN PART HAS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles has come in." Rom. 11:25
Once cast away God will never accept Israel back. But Scripture says: "For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Rom. 11:15
Prophecy never suggests that God might graft Israel back in again. But Scripture says: And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Rom. 11:23
Once God unified Gentiles spiritually through the Body of Christ, He was finished with natural Israel. But Scriptures says: "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom. 11:24)
Prophecies yet future concerning Israel refer to the Body of Christ, not Jacob's descendants. They refer to "us" not "them." But Scripture says: "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion. And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My COVENANT with them, when I take away their sins.'" (Rom. 11:26-27)
Paul's present tense, positive remarks about Israel no longer refer to the Jews but now to the Body of Christ. But Scripture says: "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." (Rom. 11:28)
God has forever REVOKED His covenant with the Jews of Israel. But Scripture says: "For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE." (Rom. 11:29)
Now I can give you much Scripture to support Israel having an earthly kingdom. Just to save space, let's look at the Lord's Prayer from the lips of Jesus Christ: Our Father, who art in heaven, THY KINGDOM COME, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in Heaven..." Jesus told his disciples not to be troubled, "for it is your Father's will to give you the kingdom. Israel was promised an earthly kingdom. This is why the apostles sold their homes and possessions. Jesus said that He was coming back soon. "Some of you will not die until you see Me coming in the clouds." "Some of you will not have gone through the nation of Israel until you see Me." Jesus promised His Twelve that "you will sit on twelve thrones rulling over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Sounds like a kingdom to me! But Israel rejected their risen Christ. So, God cut off Israel and when He did, He commissioned Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles" to go directly to the Gentiles bypassing Israel. But God will keep His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He will come again, and this time in judgment. The Body of Christ will be raptured out. Israel will go through their Tribulation described in Revelation and then Jesus will come, judge nations, and set up an earthly kingdom for Israel. They will reign for a thousand years. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem which will come down out of heaven (mentioned in Revelation). And in the thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth, Israel will be keeping Sabbath Law, circumcision, keeping the law, and certain feasts. Would you like me to give you quotes or do you want to look this up yourself?
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Barbarian offers some other examples of Peter witnessing to Gentiles.
Would you like to see more?
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Perhaps I missed the examples? The only BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE that says the Twelve witnessed to a Gentile was when Peter was sent by God to the Centurion Cornelius. And this was after God cut off Israel and commissioned Paul with the Gospel of Grace. I know of no other examples. Show me, with Scripture, and I will stand corrected.
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You seem to be a little rusty on theology for that.
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Not a very good argument for the Barbarian.
[/quote]That's not what God said. And He counts.[/quote]
Barbarian, I know this is a bit long, and I apoligize. But the argument that Israel never got out from under the law has to be put to bed:
LAW AND ISRAEL
God Calls Abraham
God made two covenants with Abraham. Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.
The first covenant is the Covenant of Grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of unCircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of unCircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:
"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised."
Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).
For Israel, the Law Was Not Optional
Jesus Christ was born a Jew under the Covenant of Circumcision, and He was circumcised strictly according to the Law on the eighth day after His birth (Luke 2:21). The thought just occurred to me that Jesus (God) made a contract with Abraham. Then He came and fulfilled Abraham’s obligation of the contract. Wouldn’t it be nice to make a contract with a car dealer and have the dealer pay for the car?
“And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off [killed] from his people; he has broken My covenant.” Gen. 17:14
"And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision…." Ex. 4:24-26
Moses learned firsthand how serious God was about circumcision. After working with Moses for eighty years, God sought to kill him because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midianite wife Zipporah. And his pagan Midianite wife did not take kindly to having to cut off the foreskin of her perfectly healthy son. But had she not, God would have killed Moses. Under Moses, Israel would learn also that failure to obey some of these commands meant a death penalty, even though some laws were symbolic and not moral nor immoral. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was executed (Num. 15:33-35).
Perpetual Laws for Israel
We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision to Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).
He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).
The Lord gave many symbolic commands including circumcision, the feasts, and the Sabbath to Israel as “everlasting statutes.” But none of these apply to us, today, in the Body of Christ. Note the Jewish purpose of the Sabbath:
”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.
But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17). And many mistakenly think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. While this will be addressed in detail later, consider what Jesus warned about the Tribulation which is after the Cross: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath” (Mat. 24:20).
Jesus Came to Israel with the Law
Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai with Grace. He came down with two stone tablets of Law. Jesus did not come to Israel (the people of the circumcision) with Grace. He was a Jew, born under the Law, circumcised on the eighth day (Luke 2:21). And, most importantly, He kept the Law perfectly.
Jesus taught Israel obedience to the law. Whatever law Moses commanded was to be heeded:
"And [jesus] answered and said to them, 'What did Moses command you?'” Mark 10:3
It mattered not whether moral or symbolic. God’s commandments were to be obeyed:
"And Jesus said to him, 'See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.'” Mat. 8:4 from Lev. 14:1-32
"Now one came and said to Him, 'Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' So [jesus] said to him, '…if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.' He said to Him, 'Which ones?' Jesus said, 'You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Mat. 19:16-19 from Lev. 18:5
Moses’ law contained hundreds of commandments, some greater, and some lesser. Regardless, according to Jess all must be taught and obeyed.
“…one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great…” Mat. 5:18-19
Moses had to be obeyed even if espoused by hypocrites:
"[Jesus said] 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do…'” Mat. 23:2-3
Not one law, no matter how small, could be disobeyed:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cmmin, and have neglected the weightier matters of he law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Mat. 23:23
Both Groups Saved by Grace
We must understand that both the circumcision and the uncircumcision are saved BY grace. Peter verified this at the Jerusalem Council when he was defending Paul’s Gospel of Grace or uncircumcision: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they [Paul's converts.” (Acts 15:11). In today’s vernacular it would read: “Let’s face it, guys. Ain’t none of us goin’ make it unless God cuts us a little slack.” So, even though Israel was under the law. they were saved BY grace. But it must be understood, that Israel could not ignore the law. They had to do their best to observe all the law.
God can add grace to works, but He will not permit adding works to grace. Under the Gospel of Grace, God offers a free gift of love—His sacrifice on the Cross. You can only repay a gift of love with love. If you give your wife a diamond because you love her, and she attempts to repay you with money, you are hurt deeply. She can only repay you for this with her love. So too, under the Gospel of Grace, God does not want you repaying Him because some law requires it. Flowers for your wife every Friday would mean little if your motivation was a State law. On the second Friday, the flowers would go in the trash instead of a vase.
But the Twelve were not given a Gospel of Grace. They were given the Gospel of Circumcision and keeping the Law. They had to be profitable servants, forgive to be forgiven, take the plow and not look back, visit the sick, visit prisoners, have faith, tithe, get circumcised, be baptized, preach the gospel, love Jesus more than their moms, heal the sick, be merciful, give to the poor, give to those who ask, keep the law (the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone), observe various feasts and Sabbaths, if asked to go one mile, go two,(add to the list). And if they had been previously forgiven by God but did not forgive future, then the previous transgressions would be put back on them. And any tree that did not produce fruit was cast into the fire. Such is life under the Gospel of Circumcision. If a Jew gave it his best shot, God would add a little grace and say, “Well done, good and faithful servant….”
Jerusalem Council
Paul mentions the Jerusalem Council in Galatians 2. Paul “went up [to Jerusalem] by revelation [commanded by God] and communicated to them [Peter and James et.al.] that gospel which I [Paul] preach among the Gentiles…” (Gal. 2:2) Why would Paul have to explain to the Twelve his gospel IF IT WERE THE SAME GOSPEL AS THEY PREACHED?
The reason is that Paul was given new marching orders. Paul was given the gospel of uncircumcision or grace with no works required for salvation. Paul would establish a church and believing Jews, saved under Peter’s gospel of circumcision or law, would come to Paul’s people and tell them they had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. But Paul would warn his followers: “…if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED” (Gal. 1:8). And, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth… Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh [law]?” (Gal. 3:1-3).
In Chapter 1 of Galatians, Paul makes it crystal clear that he did not get his gospel from Peter or any man but from Jesus Christ. When he went to the Jerusalem Council, what convinced the Twelve that his gospel was sanctioned by God? Tongues and miracles! Tongues and miracles were God’s stamp of approval on Paul, for “Israel requires a sign.” Notice too that Paul bragged that he did not have to circumcise Titus (Greek) when he attended this Council (Gal. 2:3). If the Twelve were not under the Gospel of Circumcision, why would Paul have been concerned about circumcising Titus?
Galatians 2:7-9 is proof positive that there were two covenants in effect in the last half of the Book of Acts:
"But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, THEY GAVE ME AND Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised." Gal. 2:7-9
Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].
After the Cross
God had a plan that was prophesied from Genesis through Zechariah and corroborated in the New Testament, that Israel would be a light and a blessing to the Gentiles:
“As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them [Israel]:… My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart…” The Gentiles shall come to your [Israel’s] light… Isaiah 59:21; 60:3
“I will make [Abraham] a great nation… and in you all the families of the earth [Gentiles] shall be blessed.” Gen. 12:2-3 (See also Gen. 18:18; 22:18; 26:4 and 28:14.)
“You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’” Acts 3:25
‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “In those days ten men from every language of the nations [Gentiles] shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you for we have heard that God is with you.’” Zech. 8:23
As has been shown above, Jesus did not give His apostles a Gospel of Grace. The word “grace,” in the sense of a gospel message, can’t be found in any of the four gospels; neither can a grace message be found in the first half of Acts; and neither can a grace gospel be found in any of the circumcision epistles of James, Peter, John, or Jude. A grace gospel with salvation without works or law keeping can only be found in Paul’s epistles.
Further, James writes his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.” Peter writes his epistle to the “pilgrims of the dispersion.” John writes his epistle “to the elect lady” or the chosen, and he deemed it proper to not take anything from the Gentiles (Third John 1:7). Also, it’s evident that Revelation is not written for Gentiles: “I [jesus] know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say THEY ARE JEWS and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say THEY ARE JEWS and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you” (Rev. 3:9).
After His resurrection, Jesus said to His apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always…” (Mat. 28:19-20). A thorough reading of the four gospels shows that Jesus commanded them to keep the law—the “weightier matters of the law without leaving the lesser undone.”
There are some Christians today who think that the Twelve just didn’t have the brains to figure out that the law had been done away with after Christ’s resurrection. In other words, Jesus Christ picked twelve retards, schooled them for three years, and then it took Paul to try and explain it to them. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just before His ascension: “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He [jesus] expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself” (Luke 24:27).
To Israel First
Jesus lamented that the Gentile centurion showed more faith than His people Israel. In the parable of the fig tree Jesus alluded that He was disappointed with His people Israel and was ready to cut them off. “…Look, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree [Israel] and find none. CUT IT DOWN…” (Luke 13:7). But Jesus was persuaded, by the Holy Spirit perhaps, to give the fig tree [Israel] one more year: “And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down” (Luke 13:9). God had given a prior warning in the Old Testament: “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I WILL RELENT CONCERNING THE GOOD WITH WHICH I SAID I WOULD BENEFIT IT” (Jer. 18:9-10).
While the Great Commission was for the apostles to go to the utter most parts of the earth, Jesus instructs the Twelve to first go to Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria (half Jewish), and then to the end of the earth (Acts 1:8). God’s plan was for Israel to be His evangelical nation to the world. Thus, we see the Peter focusing on the men of Israel and then declaring the message to the leaders of Israel:
“You are sons of… Abraham… To you FIRST, God, havng raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him…” Acts 3:25-26
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:36
"Then Peter said… 'For the promise is to you [Israel] and to your children and to all who are afar off…'” Acts 2:38-39
Notice that Peter addressed even those “who are afar off” referring to the settlements of Jews scattered in other countries (1 Pet. 1:1, James 1:1). Using the Temple, the seat of the nation and the identity of Israel, to preach their message, shows that the apostles were aiming for Israel’s collective repentance. Peter was most likely motivated by the fact that Jesus had promised Israel a kingdom with the Twelve sitting on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel. So, it’s not surprising when we read Peter preaching:
“Repent therefore and be converted, that you sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that HE MAY SEND JESUS CHRIST, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” Acts 3:19-21
Peter here offered the KINGDOM to Israel, if only the Jews would repent. The “times of restoration” [see also Isa. 49:6, 8; 58:12] and the “times of refreshing” (see also Isa. 28:11-12 with 1 Cor. 14:21-22) referred to the kingdom. At this point Plan A, God’s prophesied plan, was still on track.
“You [Israel] are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, “And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’” Acts 3:25 based on Gen. 12:3
The same argument Jesus used to prove life after death proves that the Old Covenant was still in effect here in Acts. For Jesus said, “have you not read what was spoken to you by God saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham…’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mat. 22:31-32). So too here, the Jews “are sons of… the covenant which God made with… Abraham.” Thus Peter would not call them the sons of a dead covenant, but of a living one.
Peter also preached to the leaders of Israel (Acts 4:8, 10, 12).
According to the Acts record, there was a total rejection by Israel’s leadership, from the high priest, to the captain of the temple, to the chief priests, to the Pharisees, to the scribes. The response from Israel’s leadership was intense persecution of Peter and his followers and eventually the murder of Stephen.
The Fig Tree Is Cut Off
I think we can all agree that Israel was finally cut off. God took Paul, gave him a gospel of grace, and bypassed Israel and went directly to the Gentiles. Israel’s plan for a kingdom is on hold “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” Then God will resume His plans for Israel. He has a covenant with Abraham that He will honor. When Jesus returns, will He come to Israel with a Gospel of Circumcision or a Gospel of Uncircumcision? And I can prove it with Scripture.
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Well, let's take a look...
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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The Rock upon which Jesus established His church is the revelation knowledge that came from the Father proclaimed that Jesus Christ is God. When you leave the Mormon Temple in Utah, you will be presented a brochure refuting that the Mormons claim inside to visitors. What is the verse that they use? Matthew 16:18. This passage grinds all false cults to powder. For all of them teach that Jesus Christ is not God.
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If you were a Catholic, you should remember what the limits on the infallibility of the Pope actually are.
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Barbarian, at this time, I do not want to go too deep in this. We've got enough on our plate already. We can address it at another time.
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I don't think rewording it is a good idea. Notice after He says that Peter is the rock on which He will build His Church, He then says that what Peter binds on Earth or looses on Earth will be done in Heaven also.
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And Peter loosed himself from the Great Commission to go to the "utter most parts of the earth."
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Or Jesus as Savior. Is there a point here?
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Okay. I'll rephrase. God the Father would not allow the Church of Christ to be founded on Peter. "For no man comes to the Father except through Me."
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Barbarian observes:
God said He did.
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Covered above.
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Literally and firmly. Gave Peter the power to bind or loosen things on Earth and in Heaven.
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Yes He did. And Peter loosed the Twelve when God cut them off and commissioned Paul. Think about it. Jesus told the Twelve, "You shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. You shall get bit by snakes with no effect. You can drink poison. The tools that Israel were to use in their evangelistic ministry were law, miracles, and Jesus Christ. In the Ark of the Covenant (or Ark of Testamony), there were the law (stone tablets), Aaron's rod that yielded ripe almonds (miracles), and the manna (Bread from Heaven or Jesus Christ). "Ten men will grab the sleeve of a Jewish man and say, we know God is with you" (OT prophecy). Why would they know? Miracles. When God cut off Israel and put their program on hold, the miracles were put on hold. Today, we see only phoney Benny Hynn miracles.
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He did it for Moses, who was likewise infirm. God picks humans not for their strength. He gives them the strength after picking them.
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Moses was a prophet. And, yes, he picks humans for tasks. But God would never hinge our salvation or establish His salvation for us on Peter.
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Barbarian observes:
It is what God wants.
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But when I get a prophecy or a teaching from a Christian, I always check to see if it lines up with Scripture. If it is contrary to the Bible, then I dismiss it. God will con contradict Himself.
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Fortunately, if you are sincere and do your best to follow Him as you think is right, He will save you.
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Barbarian, I must correct you on this. There is a passage in the Bible where God says that "Everyone was doing what he thought was right in his own eyes [what they THOUGHT was right]." And Jesus warned that "man's heart is deceitful above all things." What we think is right will not save us. It's what God thinks is right. And we had better study His word and see how He thinks about any matter. And I'm sure we can agree on this?
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As you see, you've already made some fundamental (pun intended) errors in your presentation. So you've got some patching up to do.
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Barbarian, I'm very open minded to the Truth. But once I find the Truth, I close my mind around it, and I become very closed minded at that point.
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Barbarian observes:
If I accept all of Scripture, I can.
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God commands us to accept Scripture that pertains to us. If you were in Iraq, and the commander told you to dig in and hold. But then you heard him tell another unit to attack, you would obey the dig in and hold and ignore the attack orders. Why? Because you would know that the commander was not talking to you and your unit. It's the same with Scripture. God gave the Sabbath law to Israel as a perpetual command. But there are confused Gentile Christians today who obey Sabbath law (or try to). And what is more sad, they do not know that God had a death penalty for violators.
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For me, all of Scripture is holy and true. So if you decide to ignore Jesus when He gives Peter authority over Earth and Heaven, then you have no hope of convincing me.
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Jesus made Peter the Head Apostle. And had Israel accepted their risen Christ, Peter would be second in command under Jesus Christ in Israel's kingdom. For you and I to approach God, we would have to go through Israel and Peter's authority. This would mean getting circumcised (FIRST) and then keeping Israel's statutes. But I want you to note, that at the Jerusalem Council (after God cut off Israel and picked Paul), Peter was no longer in charge. James was in charge at this point in time.
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Since James says that one is justified by faith and works, that's another problem for you. And since Jesus says that your eternal home will depend on your works, it's pointless to say only James is wrong.
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Many confused theologians on TV could not answer your question here. I can. Jesus and James say that you are justified by works. But Paul says that "we are saved by grace without works lest any man boast. Jesus and James say not to eat meat sacrified to idols. Paul say we can eat meat sacrificed to idols. Jesus warned that during the Tribulation, "pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath. James would agree with Jesus on this. But Paul writes, "Let no one judge you on food or dring or the keeping of the Sabbath..." James and Jesus would command to circumcise. But Paul wrote that "if you become circumcised, it will profit you nothing." Who's right Jesus and James or Paul? Both are. James and Jesus, when talking to Jews, advocate, for the Jews, that salvation is by works and keeping the law. Paul would never say that we are justified by the law--no not if you held a gun to his head. These Pauline verses you should recognize from memory: The law is not of faith. Without faith it's impossible to please God. The law is a ministry of death. By the law no flesh will be justified. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law gives passion to our evil desires (forbidden fruit). The sting of death is sin; the strenght of sin is the law. Do not partake of the tree, for in the day you partake of it you will die (Genesis OT). Do not partake of the law, for you will die. I (Paul) was alive once without the law (a child), but the law came and I died. O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Having begun in te Spirit, ARE YOU NOW MADE PERFECT BY THE FLESH (LAW)?
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Barbarian observes:
That's man's re-interpretation of Scripture. A new doctrine for those who don't want to accept it as it is. I realize this is distressing to you. But the truth is what it is.
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The gospel of grace was given only to Paul. He says over and over again that he did not receive his gospel from man (Peter) and that he got it directly from Jesus Christ. He calls it "my gospel." He says, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Over and over again, he teaches of the "dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me for you. When Paul started teaching his converts that he did not want them circumcise, this was a drastic change that even Peter did not understand initially. But God could not have chosen a better way to confey this to Peter than by saving Cornelious and his familY WITHOUT BE CIRCUMCISED. Peter was "astonished." No distress on my part.
[/quote]True. But you've taken that fact, and tried to make an entirely new religion out of it.[/quote]
I should have wrote, "Paul is the "apostle to the Gentiles" and he and he alone was given the gospel of grace where we are saved by grace plus nothing. When Paul went to the Jerusalem Council, his gospel would not have been excepted but for two reasons: Peter, who still had much authority, defended Paul's gospel because God had showen him that God was accepting the Gentiles WITHOUT BEING CIRCUMCISED. And, when the Twelve looked at Paul's ministry, they saw miracles and tongues. Initially God put his stamp of approval on Paul to show Israel that He had cut them off and gone directly to the Gentiles. At the end of Paul's minisry, we do not see any miracles. We see Paul telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach aches (something he had probably heard from his mom). And he writes that he had to leave so and so near death in some city and proceed on without him.
Barbarian, I will be glad to go as deep into this as you like, but it's becoming pretty lengthy and hard to respond to. If you like pick any one or a few issues that are troubling you, and I can address them? And I'm not going to proof this. Whew! I hope I didn't make too many boo boos.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
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