[Nikos]

Kick Obama out in 2012 and lets get someone who will do their job. He should be all over this problem and getting some action.

REMEMBER NOVEMBER!!!!!!

[The Barbarian]

Let's see... again, most people here will say our only choices are Obama, (who isn't doing enough to stop this mess) and the republicans (who did it to us in the first place).

I think it's time for a third choice. For November, check your congressman's record. Know who favored deregulation and cutting budget for enforcement. And get them out.

[lucy]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Let's see... again, most people here will say our only choices are Obama, (who isn't doing enough to stop this mess) and the republicans (who did it to us in the first place).

I think it's time for a third choice. For November, check your congressman's record. Know who favored deregulation and cutting budget for enforcement. And get them out.

YES! I would love to see a third party arise that actually has a chance to compete with the Rep and Demo parties. Unfortunately, our electoral system seems to cancel out that possibility.

We HAVE to get off our lazy butts and get out there and RUN for office, VOTE, and bring back THE GOSPEL, LOVE OF GOD, AND MORALITY. We will continue to have the same ole, same ole, as long as we do not have a base for morality in this country. As long as we continue to buy into a morality based on "what's best for me", we will continue to have corruption at all levels of government and business.

[Nikos]

Originally Posted by lucy

YES! I would love to see a third party arise that actually has a chance to compete with the Rep and Demo parties. Unfortunately, our electoral system seems to cancel out that possibility.

We HAVE to get off our lazy butts and get out there and RUN for office, VOTE, and bring back THE GOSPEL, LOVE OF GOD, AND MORALITY. We will continue to have the same ole, same ole, as long as we do not have a base for morality in this country. As long as we continue to buy into a morality based on "what's best for me", we will continue to have corruption at all levels of government and business.

Spot on!

[lightbringer]

And you guys don't think that there isn't a very large faction of Christians that are in the line up for the gravy $$$$ train?

You really believe that the government is all pagan?

Some one is living under a rock!

Ya want to fix it? Join a political party and become an activist, then go vote to clean up the government! Then once you've voted in the ones you THINK are good guys....KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEM!

[lucy]

Originally Posted by lightbringer

And you guys don't think that there isn't a very large faction of Christians that are in the line up for the gravy $$$$ train?

You really believe that the government is all pagan?

Some one is living under a rock!

Ya want to fix it? Join a political party and become an activist, then go vote to clean up the government! Then once you've voted in the ones you THINK are good guys....KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEM!

There is a very large faction of people calling themselves Christian to get the votes, but they aren't necessarily Christian.

There are also those who are not Christian at all who still have high ethical standards and would serve well in the gov't. We need to boot out the bad guys, vote in the guys that we think are going to serve the country rather than themselves, and as you have well spoken; keep an eye on 'em!

[The Barbarian]

YES! I would love to see a third party arise that actually has a chance to compete with the Rep and Demo parties. Unfortunately, our electoral system seems to cancel out that possibility.

We HAVE to get off our lazy butts and get out there and RUN for office, VOTE, and bring back THE GOSPEL, LOVE OF GOD, AND MORALITY. We will continue to have the same ole, same ole, as long as we do not have a base for morality in this country. As long as we continue to buy into a morality based on "what's best for me", we will continue to have corruption at all levels of government and business.

You're right, but if you vote for the lesser of two evils, you are voting for evil.

If enough of us cared enough to vote for a third party, the two big ones would clean up their act. But they laugh at the prospect because they have enough of us believing God is a republican or a democrat that they don't have to worry about it.

Get off the reservation and help change it.

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by lucy

I am outraged at the lack of response of the government to protect the delicate Gulf ecosystem from the massive toxic oil spill that is seeping into the LA wetlands and coating the coastlines and smothering the wildlife!

According to MSNBC, there is technology available right now, that has been used successfully by other countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) to suck oil directly off the surface of the water. The oil is pumped into holding tanks and can be separated from the water safely. Instead, BP has ignored this technology and has implemented the use of booms which have proven to be useless and dispersing agents which do nothing more that cause the oil to spread far and wide in smaller yet equally toxic droplets. Our illustrious Coast Guard has done little more than BP and has also been implementing booms which are ineffective in preventing the oil from reaching the LA shorelines.

Why isn't our government demanding that every possible proven technology be immediately implemented in the containment of this massive mess? Does Obama not understand the implications of the loss of the Gulf Coast sea life and other wildlife? This is the breeding area of many fish, shrimp, oysters, etc.!!! This is a catastrophic blow to the Brown Pelican, just recently removed from the endangered species list, not to mention the catastrophic disruption of the food chain and the entire ecosystem for years to come!!!!

I have just finished emailing the White House about these concerns. I would like to encourage everyone at TOL who has similar concerns to do the same. If we do not let the government know how important these issues are to us, they will continue on this path of self-interest and self-preservation at the expense of the American People.

Get outraged, people! Let your voice be heard in Washington!

Are you so naive that you don't think every possible idea been ran by the oil company engineers and specialist who work in this industry for a living? They were freaking so desperate that they are asking the public for answers. LAst time I checked they were consulting and asking engineers worldwide.

It's funny that everyone who says he didn't do enough can't come up with one thing he could have done to make the situation less than it is.

He has no knowledge of oil, nor does he have any way to stop the leak. Heck, the oil companies don't even have a way to stop the leak or make it less of a disaster than it is. They were posting links and sending emails asking the public for suggestions, and you guys are blaming Obama?

Only thing he could have done was be too engaged in it and spend excessive gov dollars and you guys would have complained about that too.

The people to be blamed are the regulators and law makers who didn't make sure that a safety net was in place to solve an issue like this if it ever occurred. And the oil companies for not having a solution before taking the greedy steps to make money.

There is nothing Obama can do to ever please, the sour mouthed cry babies.

What can he do? Or should I ask what would you do genius?

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by lucy

There is a very large faction of people calling themselves Christian to get the votes, but they aren't necessarily Christian.

There are also those who are not Christian at all who still have high ethical standards and would serve well in the gov't. We need to boot out the bad guys, vote in the guys that we think are going to serve the country rather than themselves, and as you have well spoken; keep an eye on 'em!

you mean to say a right-winger right?

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by Nikos

Kick Obama out in 2012 and lets get someone who will do their job. He should be all over this problem and getting some action.

REMEMBER NOVEMBER!!!!!!

And what is "Obama's job" in this situation?

[The Barbarian]

He should have stopped Bush and Cheney from gutting regulations, laying off enforcement staff, and letting big oil companies do as they liked.

Of course you liberals will try to excuse him by saying he wasn't president when all that happened.

You guys have an excuse for everything.

WFTH-I

[Katie]

Originally Posted by lucy

I am not saying that the government should exceed the bounds of its duties.

“…a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” – Thomas Jefferson

"Laws [my insert: should] provide against injury from others, but not from ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson

I am saying that the government is not doing what the government has been elected to do; that is, to protect the people and resources of this country. In the same manner that the government has a duty to step in when a natural disaster such as a devastating hurricane (Katrina, Ike, etc.) destroys the infrastructure of an area, it has the duty to protect the ecosystem of this country in the Gulf of Mexico. .... Yet we sit here and let BP lie to us about how much oil has spilled and we allow them to hide the evidence via oil dispersant and prohibiting reporters from recording the worst hit sites. I would like to see the gov't provide the resources that only it can provide to stop the continuing pollution of this ecosystem.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." - -Declaration of Independence

To expect that we, the people living in this land, pass off this responsibility onto the gov't that maybe (or not) actually dutiful to fulfill what we wish, and have them oblige at this point in time is delusional. There was a time when a certain institution was brought into the states for the purposes of securing what a former (otherwise beloved by most for lack of knowing any better) president desired to be in control of. This was the beginning that has led to where it is we are today. At this point, for having let it go so far, what you desire to see happen will come at a price that most, thus far seemingly, are not willing to pay. Then, the choice is ours ... and though it is staring us in the face, one must educate their ownself on ALL the writings of the founding fathers (that does not just include the official ones, but also the writings behind the official documents) as well as they must educate their ownselves on the importance of cause and effect.

If you really care, which I have not any reason for believing that you do not, then take this effect that you are speaking of ... and research the causes that have brought us to this place. Then, you will know better what needs to be done. Of course, this will bring little comfort if it should dawn on you for what also will dawn on you is how truly apathetic is the state that the majority are determined to dwell in. Therefore, I add an air of caution to take up such a pursuit.

With Wisdom, comes the burden of duty that even those we deem the strongest men around us would faint under if only for the enormous weight of it. But you, being a woman (I assume), have been naturally equipped to carry such a load ... of course, then again, as a woman it will only do good if you have men around you with whom you can share the burden if you are to take the necessary actions that are given us, not the government, to set forward into motion a movement for the good of the People not only this nation, but across the globe (for at this point, except for purposes of blame, the boundaries are being erased).

The only power I have right now is the power of my words and my vote. I cannot personally fly out to LA etc. and help clean up what has already reached the shoreline. I am grateful and laud those who can go on the 'front lines" as it were to help out. I hope more can and will go to help with the clean up.

Word alone, as I too painfully have had to learn the lesson of, is no power at all. I understand you, believe me, I do. But for some time now (since before our lifetime even), words have been exchanged, even in inspirational ways, and yet still ... here we are with the same mountain (dare I notice it is growing much too quickly even?) to climb and not even equipped with the necessary tools to begin the climb.

Words were not even used to inspire the people and rather it was incentive coupled with action to bribe the national leaders to get us in the "state" we are in now. Therefore, unless you have a bigger incentive to whet the appetite of the gov't, you will be unheard. Money talks louder than words, my dear. Dedication and willingness to action *on the part of the people* is the only thing that will speak louder for the People.

For every person that contacts the gov't. via email or letter or phone call, we are telling the gov't that we elected that we will hold them accountable when they do not fulfill their duties or worse, abuse their office for their own gain. Both political parties are guilty of this.

So tell me, how do you propose we hold them accountable, dear writer? Even further, who will wish to hold them accountable? Fear is overwhelming far too many right now, and not only fear but the sense of hopelessness. It is easy to say that we will hold someone accountable, it is another thing altogether to realize that only YOU are responsible for holding another accountable, the one you have deemed careless with what is precious and valuable in your eyes.

The Leader is not the one who appoints another to lead them. They are not the one who waits for someone to tell them what they must do and neither do they wait for others to jump on their bandwagon. The Leader of any value sets into motion, even of their own accord, what needs to be done and lives on the hope that their own efforts will be an inspiration to others so that they might find their potential to lead theirselves as well on the same path to liberty from tyranny ...

The basic problem of our nation is that our economy and outlook on life is based on covetousness. We all want what the other guy has.

And basic problems, too, have causes. Perhaps I was a bit hasty to make it seem like I do not understand why there is such lack of moderation, lack of self-control, etc. ... and even here with what you said, you are right that this is (though I would only say "part of") a problem. I have to admit that I do not think people *mean* to be such acting in a way, and therefore it is not in me to condemn the American Public as evil ... after all, we ALL ARE selfish in some form or another and even, that will never change no matter how much we close our eyes and wish it could.

My thought is that the cause to this problem that you and I have both shown contributions to it, is the lack of educating theirselves properly. This takes serious dedication, effort, and even willingness to see in yourself that you are not much different than both the citizens and the leaders of this country so as to be willing to adjust yourself first and foremost. What it also takes is a lot of time ... therefore, the problem will not be solved overnight .... patience will be a big key into any change worth making for the better. FIRST THOUGHT ... each individual must be responsible to educate their own self, and then, through action and yes words, they will have the tools to begin the climb.

But to actually believe the government, as it stands today, is capable or even willing to make this change for good and for all is to be in denial.

"Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." ~ Luke chapter 11, verse 52

(one of my favorite things about the whole of the Bible is that when one quits worrying about trying to please God as though He is an egomaniac tyrant, and rather reads it for its purpose (that is to set at liberty their own mind), they can look throughout the course of human civilization and see ever so clearly the causes implemented by those who have led it and precisely what tools they were using to achieve the desired effects they personally were working toward).

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"The spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest and ourselves united. From the conclusion of [their] war [for independence, a nation begins] going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of [that] war will remain on [them] long, will be made heavier and heavier, till [their] rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. (*) ME 2:225

I know there is much digest, but take your time and let me know what you are thinking when you have the time. I am interested in what it is you are (clearly) concerned with. In fact, because I am, that is why I do believe that you care about these things. I have been researching this, as my own concern, for quite some time now after I realized that I would be unheard no matter *how* loud I made my voice. I figured to find the root of the problem would be the only way to stand a chance of pulling it up so as to see some progress toward the good of all.

[lucy]

Originally Posted by Katie

“…a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” – Thomas Jefferson

"Laws [my insert: should] provide against injury from others, but not from ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson




"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." - -Declaration of Independence

To expect that we, the people living in this land, pass off this responsibility onto the gov't that maybe (or not) actually dutiful to fulfill what we wish, and have them oblige at this point in time is delusional. There was a time when a certain institution was brought into the states for the purposes of securing what a former (otherwise beloved by most for lack of knowing any better) president desired to be in control of. This was the beginning that has led to where it is we are today. At this point, for having let it go so far, what you desire to see happen will come at a price that most, thus far seemingly, are not willing to pay. Then, the choice is ours ... and though it is staring us in the face, one must educate their ownself on ALL the writings of the founding fathers (that does not just include the official ones, but also the writings behind the official documents) as well as they must educate their ownselves on the importance of cause and effect.

If you really care, which I have not any reason for believing that you do not, then take this effect that you are speaking of ... and research the causes that have brought us to this place. Then, you will know better what needs to be done. Of course, this will bring little comfort if it should dawn on you for what also will dawn on you is how truly apathetic is the state that the majority are determined to dwell in. Therefore, I add an air of caution to take up such a pursuit.

With Wisdom, comes the burden of duty that even those we deem the strongest men around us would faint under if only for the enormous weight of it. But you, being a woman (I assume), have been naturally equipped to carry such a load ... of course, then again, as a woman it will only do good if you have men around you with whom you can share the burden if you are to take the necessary actions that are given us, not the government, to set forward into motion a movement for the good of the People not only this nation, but across the globe (for at this point, except for purposes of blame, the boundaries are being erased).



Word alone, as I too painfully have had to learn the lesson of, is no power at all. I understand you, believe me, I do. But for some time now (since before our lifetime even), words have been exchanged, even in inspirational ways, and yet still ... here we are with the same mountain (dare I notice it is growing much too quickly even?) to climb and not even equipped with the necessary tools to begin the climb.

Words were not even used to inspire the people and rather it was incentive coupled with action to bribe the national leaders to get us in the "state" we are in now. Therefore, unless you have a bigger incentive to whet the appetite of the gov't, you will be unheard. Money talks louder than words, my dear. Dedication and willingness to action *on the part of the people* is the only thing that will speak louder for the People.



So tell me, how do you propose we hold them accountable, dear writer? Even further, who will wish to hold them accountable? Fear is overwhelming far too many right now, and not only fear but the sense of hopelessness. It is easy to say that we will hold someone accountable, it is another thing altogether to realize that only YOU are responsible for holding another accountable, the one you have deemed careless with what is precious and valuable in your eyes.

The Leader is not the one who appoints another to lead them. They are not the one who waits for someone to tell them what they must do and neither do they wait for others to jump on their bandwagon. The Leader of any value sets into motion, even of their own accord, what needs to be done and lives on the hope that their own efforts will be an inspiration to others so that they might find their potential to lead theirselves as well on the same path to liberty from tyranny ...



And basic problems, too, have causes. Perhaps I was a bit hasty to make it seem like I do not understand why there is such lack of moderation, lack of self-control, etc. ... and even here with what you said, you are right that this is (though I would only say "part of") a problem. I have to admit that I do not think people *mean* to be such acting in a way, and therefore it is not in me to condemn the American Public as evil ... after all, we ALL ARE selfish in some form or another and even, that will never change no matter how much we close our eyes and wish it could.

My thought is that the cause to this problem that you and I have both shown contributions to it, is the lack of educating theirselves properly. This takes serious dedication, effort, and even willingness to see in yourself that you are not much different than both the citizens and the leaders of this country so as to be willing to adjust yourself first and foremost. What it also takes is a lot of time ... therefore, the problem will not be solved overnight .... patience will be a big key into any change worth making for the better. FIRST THOUGHT ... each individual must be responsible to educate their own self, and then, through action and yes words, they will have the tools to begin the climb.

But to actually believe the government, as it stands today, is capable or even willing to make this change for good and for all is to be in denial.

"Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." ~ Luke chapter 11, verse 52

(one of my favorite things about the whole of the Bible is that when one quits worrying about trying to please God as though He is an egomaniac tyrant, and rather reads it for its purpose (that is to set at liberty their own mind), they can look throughout the course of human civilization and see ever so clearly the causes implemented by those who have led it and precisely what tools they were using to achieve the desired effects they personally were working toward).

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"The spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest and ourselves united. From the conclusion of [their] war [for independence, a nation begins] going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of [that] war will remain on [them] long, will be made heavier and heavier, till [their] rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. (*) ME 2:225

I know there is much digest, but take your time and let me know what you are thinking when you have the time. I am interested in what it is you are (clearly) concerned with. In fact, because I am, that is why I do believe that you care about these things. I have been researching this, as my own concern, for quite some time now after I realized that I would be unheard no matter *how* loud I made my voice. I figured to find the root of the problem would be the only way to stand a chance of pulling it up so as to see some progress toward the good of all.

I enjoyed your comments very much, especially your quotes from Thomas Jefferson. Our Pastor has been teaching on the founding Fathers lately, reading documents and letters they wrote warning the people of then new country that the Constitution, Dec. of Independence etc. would be effective documents only as long as the people assent to being ruled by the ultimate ruler, i.e. God. If God and the Bible are tossed aside, then even the Constitution of the US is of no effect against tyrants.

I will have to think on this more....

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by lucy

I enjoyed your comments very much, especially your quotes from Thomas Jefferson. Our Pastor has been teaching on the founding Fathers lately, reading documents and letters they wrote warning the people of then new country that the Constitution, Dec. of Independence etc. would be effective documents only as long as the people assent to being ruled by the ultimate ruler, i.e. God. If God and the Bible are tossed aside, then even the Constitution of the US is of no effect against tyrants.

I will have to think on this more....

Yada, yada, blah, blah.

Still have yet to see you give your genius expertise telling us all what Obama could possibly do about a situation like this, that not even the experts in the business have solved.

Tell us genius.

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

Yada, yada, blah, blah.

Still have yet to see you give your genius expertise telling us all what Obama could possibly do about a situation like this, that not even the experts in the business have solved.

Tell us genius.

The only worthy expertise that can be given to anyone is to NOT assume that Obama even cares to fix such situations. Not only that, it is not the duty of the President to worry about these type of effects. That is only ever been given as a duty to the People according to the documents that were given as a valuable treasure to the People of this Nation.

Experts in Business can not resolve this .... even though they might give advice, there is not any advice that they could give to anyone better than ... figure it out for your ownselves! Do not for one second believe that, other than a minority, those in business have the common citizen's good in mind. Politicians, business experts, lawyers .. the whole lot of those we expect to fix it know that it is in their own interest to let people believe they have the answers than to let the individual realize they hold the answers already in their own hands. They would lose what they have so carefully worked for ... their piece of the pie. They have a right to put up the smoke and screens they devise ... though it may, or more likely not, be morally right. The rest of us, if we don't like it, are the only one's responsible to tear down these "expert opinions" to see that these opinions are given for their, not our, benefit.