[Non-Excluvistic]

As part of my dialogue with non-Muslims, I will continue to post Info from the Muslim world presenting our position, showing what we think about violence in the name of Islam. Often, the view in the West is that we Muslims do not speak out against the violence. Westerners don't hear Muslims speak out, nor do they hear the cry for help against the hijackers of the faith of over 1 billion. Western media seems to not present this picture as much as they present the violence, so I will do my best to post programs from Islamic TV and other places to show what we really think.

As a Muslim, I often experience prejudice. We do not like to be generalized, or have views which we do not hold placed on to us. If you want to know what we think, hear our voices; do not let the actions of a few speak for the hearts of many. The first step towards love and peace in this world, is understanding one another.

[Tyrathca]

I agree that generalisations that all Muslims support or are silent about terrorism is wrong and that prejudice against individuals (such as yourself) based on said generalisations are wrong. However it is incorrect to say that this is a "hijacking" of 1 billion Muslim's faith, there is simply too large a support base for it to characterize it as a small fringe minority view. I will draw your attention to "What the World Thinks in 2002. How Global Publics View: Their Lives, Their Countries, The World, America" particularly the table labelled Suicide Bombing In Defence Of Islam. Also see "Views of a Changing World 2003. War With Iraq Further Divides Global Publics" and the table labelled Confidence in World Figures to do the Right Thing and note how high Osama bin Laden ranked in some countries. What this shows is that the violent streams of Islamic thought exist and are of considerable size, representing large minorities in many countries (and majorities in a few).

While those sources did not look at the views of Muslims in western countries like the USA I will predict that, based on my experience and the geopolitical trends in the data on other countries, the support for the violent elements would be very very low. However the reality is that violent and aggressive Islamic thought is a sizable and significant problem that should not be ignored. To characterise the issue as separate to Islam does not fit the reality and makes about as much sense as saying the Cold War had nothing to do with communism. Bigots and idiots may then use this to discriminate against all Muslims on an individual level because of this, and that is wrong, but we should not ignore the original problem in order to deal with the prejudice our concern creates within some people.

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by Tyrathca

I agree that generalisations that all Muslims support or are silent about terrorism is wrong and that prejudice against individuals (such as yourself) based on said generalisations are wrong. However it is incorrect to say that this is a "hijacking" of 1 billion Muslim's faith, there is simply too large a support base for it to characterize it as a small fringe minority view. I will draw your attention to "What the World Thinks in 2002. How Global Publics View: Their Lives, Their Countries, The World, America" particularly the table labelled Suicide Bombing In Defence Of Islam. Also see "Views of a Changing World 2003. War With Iraq Further Divides Global Publics" and the table labelled Confidence in World Figures to do the Right Thing and note how high Osama bin Laden ranked in some countries. What this shows is that the violent streams of Islamic thought exist and are of considerable size, representing large minorities in many countries (and majorities in a few).

While those sources did not look at the views of Muslims in western countries like the USA I will predict that, based on my experience and the geopolitical trends in the data on other countries, the support for the violent elements would be very very low. However the reality is that violent and aggressive Islamic thought is a sizable and significant problem that should not be ignored. To characterise the issue as separate to Islam does not fit the reality and makes about as much sense as saying the Cold War had nothing to do with communism. Bigots and idiots may then use this to discriminate against all Muslims on an individual level because of this, and that is wrong, but we should not ignore the original problem in order to deal with the prejudice our concern creates within some people.

It is not my perspective that anyone should ignore them, especially not Muslims, because many Muslims are victims of acts of terrorism too. It is not publicized that many Muslims are targeted by these terrorist and are murdered all the time. It is not a threat that is separate from the Muslim community, because many of us are targeted too. The Muslims who follow this teaching of radicalism are not excepted by Islamic majority. To understand the problem and the Muslim concern and struggle with it, you'd have to watch Islamic TV and engage yourself in our community and thought. I will do my best to post these discussions.

My effort is to rid people of the prejudice. To say Quran supports what these acts of terror, is the same as generalizing me and telling me I agree or believe in terrorism when neither of which is true.

Bad exist among all people religious or not, my goal is to represent the many of us who speak out against terror and injustice. If you want to know what Muslims believe and support, then you'd have to listen to their voices.

[Quincy]

Yea, I hear you NE. I spent most of the 00s living not far from a mosque in a mostly muslim neighborhood. I think you guys get a bad rap too. People from your walk of life were far better to me than most others. You have to understand though, not all westerners are against you guys. All factions have their nutcases, don't let websites like this one fool you into thinking that nutjobs are the norm. People with hate to spread always gravitate to an accommodating outlet.

[Memento Mori]

But can we still criticize Islam for its other aspects?

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

But can we still criticize Islam for its other aspects?

We can criticize anyone, or anything for it's aspects we may not agree with--including religious views. This thread is simply to present the voices of Muslims who do not support acts of terror. If you'd like to criticize something other than terror, then you are free to make a thread voicing your concerns. I just don't want this one hijacked into becoming a big hate and argument fest.

[Memento Mori]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

We can criticize anyone, or anything for it's aspects we may not agree with--including religious views. This thread is simply to present the voices of Muslims who do not support acts of terror. If you'd like to criticize something other than terror, then you are free to make a thread voicing your concerns. I just don't want this one hijacked into becoming a big hate and argument fest.

Well except that some of that terrorism comes from criticism of Islam. If you'll recall the death of Theo van Gogh or violent protests to the Danish cartoons. These may not be specific acts of terror but still reveal quite a bit of potential friction between a western society and a strong conservative Muslim views. Do you cast off these people who actively attacked any critics of their faith?

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Well except that some of that terrorism comes from criticism of Islam. If you'll recall the death of Theo van Gogh or violent protests to the Danish cartoons. These may not be specific acts of terror but still reveal quite a bit of potential friction between a western society and a strong conservative Muslim views. Do you cast off these people who actively attacked any critics of their faith?

Yes, acts of violence also come after criticism of Islam. Many have turned Muhammad (pbuh) into an idol by going to extremes, even though he tried to prevent such things, by requesting that no image of him be made, nor he be worshiped. By acting crazy over a cartoon, they forgot the underlying purpose of him requesting such things not be done, and idolize him anyways. Many people go to extremes in their religion, and should not; the Quran tells people not to go to extremes in there religion, but hey, you have bad apples in every group, religious or not. I do not agree with any extreme, or radical view, nor do I befriend anyone who holds fundamental radical views. The fundamentalist mind, is an irrational mind, and it threatens peace for all, no matter what the religion is.

Many Imans have been murdered for speaking against radicals. To understand the radicals, you have to understand and research where they get their inspiration and teaching of radical views from; it's not from the prophet. You will find me making no excuses for the radicals, nor will I justify it by my religion.

[Memento Mori]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

Yes, acts of violence also come after criticism of Islam. Many have turned Muhammad (pbuh) into an idol by going to extremes, even though he tried to prevent such things, by requesting that no image of him be made, nor he be worshiped. By acting crazy over a cartoon, they forget the underlying purpose of him requesting such things not be done, and idolize him anyways. Many people go to extremes in their religion, and should not; the Quran tells people not to go to extremes in there religion, but hey, you have bad apples in every group, religious or not. I do not agree with any extreme, or radical view, nor do I befriend anyone who holds fundamental radical views. The fundamentalist mind, is an irrational mind, and it threatens peace for all, no matter what the religion is.

Many Imans have been murdered for speaking against radicals. To understand the radicals, you have to understand and research where they get their inspiration and teaching of radical views from; it's not from the prophet.

You pass.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the extremely conservative mindset in Islam is as sparse as you make it out to be. Europe has begun to see the friction between the extremely conservative Muslims and contemporary society. Where any criticism of the faith is responded with a death threat. And jokes and social commentary become censored for fear of assassination.

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

You pass.

Unfortunately, I don't think

Keyword in what you said is "think"

It is a mistake to take a selected presentation and cast it as the overall generalization of over a billion people. Especially if you live in America around almost 10 million Muslims who you do not see this type of display from; keep in mind that a great portion of Muslims in America are immigrants from different parts of the world. You have to ask yourself why is it that there isn't this display from those who live among you, as it is presented in the media, in other places. Are these selected views, or overall views. How do you determine what is sparse, when all you get is a sparse view?

All we can do is speak out, after that people will continue to generalize or they won't. After all is said and done, reality is just that which one makes it.

Question: Why don't we see the radical view of the nearly 10 million Muslims in America? What is the difference in your opinion?

[Memento Mori]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

Keyword in what you said is "think"

It is a mistake to take a selected presentation and cast it as the overall generalization of over a billion people. Especially if you live in America around almost 10 million Muslims who you do not see this type of display from; keep in mind that a great portion of Muslims in America are immigrants from different parts of the world. You have to ask yourself why is it that there isn't this display from those who live among you, as it is presented in the media. Are they selected views, or overall views.

All we can do is speak out, after that people will continue to generalize or they won't. After all is said and done, reality is just that which one makes it.

Except that there are as you stated 1 billion Muslims. Even if extreme conservativism is only .1% of the view held by Muslims worldwide that's still 100 million people. Even if there are only a couple tens of thousands of extremists Muslims who are willing to kill because someone criticized the view is still outstanding. I think many of the riots demonstrate to the cartoons show the unwillingness to even talk about one's religion in any sense. There are rational reactions and then there are overreactions which the riots demonstrate.

Also, Muslims in America are probably far less likely to be willing to commit such crimes as they are not as exposed to the extremist group think which would probably take place in certain Middle Eastern countries because of the way American are socialized and how immigrants must adapt. I see many Muslims at the school I attend and they are certainly upstanding citizens.

What I mean is, the minority of extremists are extreme enough to cause people to need bodyguards and stifle free speech.

[Non-Excluvistic]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Except that there are as you stated 1 billion Muslims. Even if extreme conservativism is only .1% of the view held by Muslims worldwide that's still 100 million people. Even if there are only a couple tens of thousands of extremists Muslims who are willing to kill because someone criticized the view is still outstanding. I think many of the riots demonstrate to the cartoons show the unwillingness to even talk about one's religion in any sense. There are rational reactions and then there are overreactions which the riots demonstrate.

1%? 1% of 1 billion would be 10 million. Could you imagine 10 million bomb ready radicals? 1% is not even entertainable, as they would be almost uncontainable, and the world would be at war. Just picture 10 million suicide bombers ready to go. These groups are known to be small organizations and together they may have nearly half million or more, maybe a million, but I'd doubt it. There are about 3.3 million total in the Us military between reserves and active duty, do you really think that the number of radicals out number the entire US military? I'd seriously doubt those extremist groups have 1% of the Muslim world with them.

Demonstrations and riots, are now getting into the thought of community and associated opinions, not teachings of the religion. The issue is that Westerners associate Muslims and violence as some instruction given by them by the Quran to terrorize all who are not Muslims, and that is not the case.

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Also, Muslims in America are probably far less likely to be willing to commit such crimes as they are not as exposed to the extremist group think which would probably take place in certain Middle Eastern countries because of the way American are socialized and how immigrants must adapt. I see many Muslims at the school I attend and they are certainly upstanding citizens.

As you said, American Muslims are not committing senseless acts, due to their non-association with these extremist groups. Though they are not in connection with those groups, they are still connected to the Quran, and Islamic teachings. The issue is that many Westerners associate violence and Muslims with teachings in the Quran, and that is not so. The prejudice is that we are violent and taught to be by our religion. As stated in the videos I presented from Imans and others, "Terrorism is Un-Islamic"

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

What I mean is, the minority of extremists are extreme enough to cause people to need bodyguards and stifle free speech.

Yes, and it only takes a few to terrorize many. You do realize that Imans are often the target of acts of terrorism, right? I think you are viewing this as an Muslim vs non-Muslim thing, when in fact Muslims casualties are very high from these extremist groups.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

As part of my dialogue with non-Muslims, I will continue to post Info from the Muslim world presenting our position, showing what we think about violence in the name of Islam.

Rather than blogging and asserting, why not answer direct questions put to you:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...9&postcount=44

:squint:

AMR

[Memento Mori]

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

1%? 1% of 1 billion would be 10 million. Could you imagine 10 million bomb ready radicals? 1% is not even entertainable, as they would be almost uncontainable, and the world would be at war. Just picture 10 million suicide bombers ready to go. These groups are known to be small organizations and together they may have nearly half million or more, maybe a million, but I'd doubt it. There are about 3.3 million total in the Us military between reserves and active duty, do you really think that the number of radicals out number the entire US military? I'd seriously doubt those extremist groups have 1% of the Muslim world with them.

Sorry, it was supposed to be .1%. I'm on some weird cough medicine.

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

Demonstrations and riots, are now getting into the thought of community and associated opinions, not teachings of the religion. The issue is that Westerners associate Muslims and violence as some instruction given by them by the Quran to terrorize all who are not Muslims, and that is not the case.

But it goes back to religion. The demonstrations were for blasphemy against Allah. Which is strictly what I'm trying to stick to. Regardless of the contents of the Quran, the people often use the book to defend their actions. If I said that Mohammed was just a guy trying to obtain political power through force and religion, who's to say a person wouldn't attack me and possibly kill me for saying it.

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

As you said, American Muslims are not committing senseless acts, due to their non-association with these extremist groups. Though they are not in connection with those groups, they are still connected to the Quran, and Islamic teachings. The issue is that many Westerners associate violence and Muslims with teachings in the Quran, and that is not so. The prejudice is that we are violent and taught to be by our religion. As stated in the videos I presented from Imans and others, "Terrorism is Un-Islamic"

Well good luck to you. It's not exactly Islam that needs to change, but the Conservatism therein. The way I see it, in order to fit in Western Society, certain views need to be compromised with the majority and by the next generation many views are ultimately changed to fit the surrounding and suited to fit the belief system. Your situation determines your socialization and your socialization determines your views (for the most part).

Originally Posted by Non-Excluvistic

Yes, and it only takes a few to terrorize many. You do realize that Imans are often the target of acts of terrorism, right? I think you are viewing this as an Muslim vs non-Muslim thing, when in fact Muslims casualties are very high from these extremist groups.

I was viewing it as it related to me. Muslims killing each other does nothing in the totality of the situation that affects me. If Muslims blow each other up, it doesn't affect me except in the way I view Islam (which ultimately is negative). In reality, you need to stop the massacre by and to your own people and then you can try to alter others opinions of the group. After all, it's hard to maintain an image when you're fighting a war.

[zoo22]

I remember Timothy McVeigh & the Oklahoma city bombing... All of the Muslims who shut down shop because they knew they'd be targeted. They were right. On my block, which had a lot of Muslim-owned businesses, firebombs were thrown for nights... So sad and lame.