[chair]

I see that there is a lot of misunderstanding of Jews and Judaism here, and by extension misunderstanding of what the "Old Testament" is, and even of who Jesus was. I'll try to clear this up a bit.

The following is my personal view of things:

First of all, what is Judaism?
On a very basic level, Judaism is the religion of the Jews. This sounds like a tautology, but it's not. To understand this, we have to go back to another, more basic question:

Who are the Jews?
The Jews are a national group. National, not in the sense of France, but more in the sense of the Navajo Nation. Maybe 'tribe' is a better word. This is very basic. It explains, among other things, why we tend to stick together. It may be hard for Western Christians to understand this, but that's the way it is (I can give examples later of how this works).

In English we say that someone "converts to Judaism", as if the person is just changing religions. But that is inaccurate. When a person converts, accepting the religion is just part of it. The 'convert' is joining the tribe. Circumcision is not just a religious rite. It is symbolic of joining the tribe.

Now back to Judaism. As I said, it is the religion of the Jews.
At this point, many Christians will say to themselves "right, it is based on the Old Testament". If you think that you are wrong, not only about Judaism, but about the Old Testament (which I prefer to call the Hebrew Bible- no point in calling it "Old" if you don't have a "New").

Judaism is the religion of the Jews, and it is based on Jewish tradition. We've been around a long time, so we have a lot of traditions. Part is written in various books, and part is oral.

Now here is the part that will confuse many, and get others quite upset:
The Hebrew Bible is simply the earliest written collection of our traditions. That is what it is. It is ancient. It is holy. But it is not the literal Word of God.

So why does the Hebrew Bible have authority? How do we know that it is holy and valuable? Many Christians will say: "Oh, because it is the Word of God". But they are wrong. They are just raising another question- "how do you know it is the word of God?"

I say that the Bible is authoritative not because it is the "Word of God". Its authority comes from tradition, and tradition at its basis is oral, passed on from generation to generation. That is how Jesus knew it was holy- from tradition- Joseph raised him to accept the Hebrew Bible as holy and authoritative.

Later traditions, written and oral, don't have the status of the Bible, but the basis for their authority is identical.

Judaism, as I said, is the religion of the Jews. As such, it evolves with the Jewish people over time. And that is how it should be. A live tradition, dealing with new circumstances while remaining connected to the old ways.

Now it is quite possible for someone to be a Jew, yet not follow the traditions. And it is quite possible for there to be differing opinions on the direction that Judaism should take. This has been true historically (recall the various cults around the time of Jesus, or the Karaites as another example). The arguments about this can reach the point where one group will point at the other and say "that's not real Judaism". This isn't that much of a problem, with the exception of converts, who may find themselves accepted by one group and rejected by another. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. There isn't a Vatican or someone that will decide these things for everyone.

I have seen Judaism described as "the world's oldest tribal religion". That is a good summary of what I tried to explain above.

Now, another important point. Since Judaism is the religion of the tribe called 'the Jews' it was never intended to be a religion for everyone. It definitely has a vision of what the world should be like, as can be read in some of the prophets. But it does not expect everyone to become Jewish.

Christianity started as a type of Judaism, but the major split came when it reached out from the Jews to the whole world. I am not much of an expert on the New Testament, but when I read Paul's letters I see him dealing with this issue, the shifting from the religion of the Jews to a religion for everyone- the circumcised (i.e. members of the tribe), and the uncircumcised (the rest of the world).

It is not uncommon for religions to have a holy book and a set of later traditions that are also holy. As far as I understand it, Catholics have this, and Muslims do as well.

And one last word on the Hebrew Bible. It doesn't claim to be the "Word of God". It does, however, claim to include the words of God, in specific places where God is quoted (and there are many of those places).

And my personal request: please read this carefully and think a little before you respond. Maybe read it twice. For many of you this will be very different from your usual way of thinking about things.

Chair

[Nick M]

How can the Hebrew Bible be Holy, which it is, if it is not from God?

[fool]

I'm circumcised.
Does that mean I'm in?

[nanonator]

chair,

I noticed that you left out any reference to the Talmud. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Judaism the religion of the Jews as viewed through the Talmud? And also, I have seen quotes from the Talmud that state it has more authority than the Bible. What are your thoughts on this? Thanx!

[Non-Excluvistic]

Great post Chair.

[elohiym]

Can you elaborate on this point you made in light of Isaiah 56:6-8?

Originally Posted by chair

Now, another important point. Since Judaism is the religion of the tribe called 'the Jews' it was never intended to be a religion for everyone. It definitely has a vision of what the world should be like, as can be read in some of the prophets. But it does not expect everyone to become Jewish.

(For those unfamiliar with the scripture, in Isaiah the following is prophesied...)

Isaiah 56:6-8

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Those verses appear to contradict your assertion that "it was never intended to be a religion for everyone." Indeed, Jesus seemed to be making the opposite point when he quoted Isaiah 56:7.

[chair]

Originally Posted by Nick M

How can the Hebrew Bible be Holy, which it is, if it is not from God?

A lot depends on how you define "holy". Here is Webster:

1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : divine <for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple> <holy prophets>
4 a : having a divine quality <holy love> b : venerated as or as if sacred <holy scripture> <a holy relic>
5 —used as an intensive <this is a holy mess> <he was a holy terror when he drank — Thomas Wolfe> ; often used in combination as a mild oath <holy smoke>

3 and 4 work OK. 3b especially:
b : venerated as or as if sacred <holy scripture> <a holy relic>

among the definitions of 'sacred' is:
2 a : worthy of religious veneration

Most people can think of holy things that are not 'from God'. Holy places, holy utensils, maybe holy people- and holy books. Even a prayer book has some level of 'holiness'

[chair]

Originally Posted by nanonator

chair,

I noticed that you left out any reference to the Talmud. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Judaism the religion of the Jews as viewed through the Talmud? And also, I have seen quotes from the Talmud that state it has more authority than the Bible. What are your thoughts on this? Thanx!

The Talmud is one of the later traditions that I was talking about. It is a critical one, because it shaped Judaism for the past 1500 years. But remember always that the Talmud, a book, is neither more nor less than a written from of the tradition.

Tradition evolves over time, so the later traditions are more binding than the earlier ones. If you were familiar with the Talmud, you would see that it goes to great efforts to reconcile its (really their's- the Rabbis) view with the Bible, because the Bible still has the highest status.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by fool

I'm circumcised.
Does that mean I'm in?

Chair should address the perception of non-Jews in the eyes of an orthodox Jew. How is it any different then the way Gentiles were treated by the orthodox Jews in Jesus' day?

Also, he should share how people like me, coverts from Judaism to Christianity, are treated by and thought of by orthodox Jews. He should explain why they consider us dead.

[fool]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Chair should address the perception of non-Jews in the eyes of an orthodox Jew. How is it any different then the way Gentiles were treated by the orthodox Jews in Jesus' day.

Also, he should share how people like me, coverts from Judaism to Christianity, are treated by and thought of by orthodox Jews. He should explain why they consider us dead.

That be great too but I mostly want to know why I'm missing my foreskin.

[chair]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Can you elaborate on this point you made in light of Isaiah 56:6-8?



(For those unfamiliar with the scripture, in Isaiah the following is prophesied...)

Isaiah 56:6-8

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Those verses appear to contradict your assertion that "it was never intended to be a religion for everyone." Indeed, Jesus seemed to be making the opposite point when he quoted Isaiah 56:7.

The prophet here has said two things:
1. that there is room for converts
2. that the Temple will be a house of prayer for all nations.

Does that mean everybody will convert?

Try Solomon, 2 Chronicles 6
32 "As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when he comes and prays toward this temple, 33 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name.

I don't know if there is any point in throwing further verses at each other. It is amazing what people 'prove' by choosing their verses.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by fool

That be great too but I mostly want to know why I'm missing my foreskin.

The reason you are missing your foreskin is because your parents, for whatever reason, either allowed or initiated your circumcision.

Originally, in Judaism, the entire foreskin was not removed, just the tip. Things changed, obviously, but that's another good story.

You can restore your foreskin, BTW. A friend of mine restored his completely within a year. Just Google it, if you miss your foreskin.

[chair]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Chair should address the perception of non-Jews in the eyes of an orthodox Jew. How is it any different then the way Gentiles were treated by the orthodox Jews in Jesus' day?

Also, he should share how people like me, coverts from Judaism to Christianity, are treated by and thought of by orthodox Jews. He should explain why they consider us dead.

Well, for starters, there isn't a standard way of the "perception of non-Jews in the eyes of an orthodox Jew". Hasn't been for centuries. Check Maimonides and Judah Halevi for details. Fact is, there isn't a standard way of viewing nearly anything in Judaism.

Conversion to Christianity is considered pretty darn bad. In principle, a Jew who leaves Judaism is still a Jew. That's the Halacha. As far as I can tell, when it comes down to it, converting to Christianity is considered bad because:
1. The early competition between Judaism and Christianity
2. The tensions (to put it mildly) between Jews and Christians over the centuries.
3. The view that Christianity is not really monotheistic (yes, yes, I know. We are talking about the Jewish viewpoint here).
Not that converts to Islam are viewed favorably, mind you.

[kmoney]

Originally Posted by chair

I see that there is a lot of misunderstanding of Jews and Judaism here, and by extension misunderstanding of what the "Old Testament" is, and even of who Jesus was. I'll try to clear this up a bit.

Can you clarify or expand on what you meant by the part in bold?


And good thread.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by chair

The prophet here has said two things:
1. that there is room for converts
2. that the Temple will be a house of prayer for all nations.

Does that mean everybody will convert?

Unless you think God was implying that His temple would be merely one among many temples of other gods, yes it does mean that. Where in any of the writings of Judaism, let alone the Bible, does Judaism acknowledge other God's or their temples of worship valid?

Originally Posted by chair

Try Solomon, 2 Chronicles 6
32 "As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when he comes and prays toward this temple, 33 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name.

You think "that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you" means there is room for other temples and other Gods? Clearly, based on the entire Hebrew Bible, God's intention was to draw all people into a relationship with him through Israel.

Originally Posted by chair

I don't know if there is any point in throwing further verses at each other. It is amazing what people 'prove' by choosing their verses.

Well, so far the only verses we've seen are the ones that prove my position. I suppose that if you can't provide proof for your claims from the Bible, there is no point in throwing verses at each other. Nevertheless, you have made several claims on this thread, and I am going to test them.