[1PeaceMaker]

I've met some really nice-seeming Buddhists on this forum, and non of them seemed at all hateful and threatening in my interactions. So let me just say that I've never met a Buddhist hater, or if I did, I just couldn't see it.

So this isn't about the Buddhists themselves.

This is about a doctrine that is central to Buddhism itself. The doctrine of "no self." I see it every time I look at Buddhism. I'm shocked at how many teachers wear the concept so proudly.

I see it as hateful.

What's hateful about it, you may ask? If you have "no self" then how can you love your neighbor as yourself when both you and they indeed have no self worth?

"It puts the lotion in the basket" - Silence of the Lambs

[1PeaceMaker]

I was hoping a Buddhist could explain to me why the "no self" concept is loving. Maybe I've missed something.

Fellow Christians, what do you think?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker

What's hateful about it, you may ask? If you have "no self" then how can you love your neighbor as yourself when both you and they indeed have no self worth?

Sounds like a hateful doctrine to me.

[taikoo]

Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker

I've met some really nice-seeming Buddhists on this forum, and non of them seemed at all hateful and threatening in my interactions. So let me just say that I've never met a Buddhist hater, or if I did, I just couldn't see it.

So this isn't about the Buddhists themselves.

This is about a doctrine that is central to Buddhism itself. The doctrine of "no self." I see it every time I look at Buddhism. I'm shocked at how many teachers wear the concept so proudly.

I see it as hateful.

What's hateful about it, you may ask? If you have "no self" then how can you love your neighbor as yourself when both you and they indeed have no self worth?

"It puts the lotion in the basket" - Silence of the Lambs

I grew up in a buddhist tradition. I was also taught the value and virtue or putting my duty to others ahead of my own concerns.

i could quite easily find something in the bible, take it out of context,
and use it to falsely conclude that christianity is a hateful cult.

I think your bible suggests removal of beam in one's own eye before worrying about the speck in someone elses. go forth, as it also says, and do likewise, svp.

[Tathagata]

"He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye." - Buddha

How is that a hateful doctrine? In Buddhism, you are not just an isolated being separate from everyone else, you are everything that exists looking through the lense of a single human being. Because we're all one and all interconnected, there is no reason to hate your neighbor, but rather only to have compassion for your neighbor.

[gamera]

This is about a doctrine that is central to Buddhism itself. The doctrine of "no self." I see it every time I look at Buddhism. I'm shocked at how many teachers wear the concept so proudly.

I see it as hateful.

Buddhism has many texts, just like Christianity. You have taken an idea out of context.

Now I happen to agree with you that I don't think the goal of no self is conducive to tranformation into a loving person. Or rather, I don't think putting self aside through effort can authentically put self aside (I think it actually augments the self).

But that is a philosophical distinction, and I don't depreciate Buddhism as a narrative. It doesn't diminish the gospel if Buddhism were able to transform people. I would celebrate that.

But as it is, I have this gospel and it's the good news and I know from experience that it can transform us into loving persons, and so I don't feel like Christians need to criticize Buddhism or any other religion. We just have to share ours.

But I agree, I'd like to hear more from Buddhists on this.

[Son of Jack]

Originally Posted by Tathagata

"He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye." - Buddha

If I see myself in all things and all things in myself, how can I see it/them with an impartial eye?

How is that a hateful doctrine? In Buddhism, you are not just an isolated being separate from everyone else, you are everything that exists looking through the lenses of a single human being. Because we're all one and all interconnected, there is no reason to hate your neighbor, but rather only to have compassion for your neighbor.

In reality, how are hatred and compassion any different when it's all one and the same?

[Tathagata]

Originally Posted by Son of Jack

If I see myself in all things and all things in myself, how can I see it/them with an impartial eye?

Because you don't view yourself as separate from everyone else, that's why you look on all things with an impartial eye.

In reality, how are hatred and compassion any different when it's all one and the same?

Non-sequitur.

Just because all things are one, does not mean that distinctions, variations, and differentiations don't exist. There can be one car with many different parts. Oneness =/= sameness.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by taikoo

I grew up in a buddhist tradition. I was also taught the value and virtue or putting my duty to others ahead of my own concerns.

I don't believe anyone has claimed that Buddhism has only hateful doctrines. What is being discussed here specifically is the doctrine of "no self" and its ramifications.

Originally Posted by taikoo

i could quite easily find something in the bible, take it out of context,
and use it to falsely conclude that christianity is a hateful cult.

Nothing has been taken out of context here. This is a carryover from the Buddhist evangelism thread.

Originally Posted by taikoo

I think your bible suggests removal of beam in one's own eye before worrying about the speck in someone elses. go forth, as it also says, and do likewise, svp.

So why are you doing it? And for nothing.

[John Mortimer]

To me the teaching of no-self makes perfect sense - but only because I see it as part of a bigger picture. If I were to sum that bigger picture up in one word it would be, "God".

Gautama Buddha essentially brought a radical reform movement of the Hindu tradition and many subsequent Buddhists have thrown out the baby with the bath water, (in a way reminiscent of many Protestants rejecting valuable aspects of the Catholic tradition).

It would seem that an inflexible and oppressive sense of hierarchy had taken hold of the Hindu tradition leading to - just as an example - the caste system. Gautama, upon his enlightenment, recognized that he and everyone else is more than the separated sense of self. He recognized that this whole question of our sense of identity is crucial. Whatever we think we are, we are more than that. Indeed Gautama called that "more" the Buddha nature.... formless being... pure awareness, formless because it is beyond form.

Unfortunately, so many people hold on to the belief that there can be nothing beyond the world of form. However the formless being that we are is not no-thing, it is actually the sustaining Source of the world of form and the ground of all being.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by gamera

Buddhism has many texts, just like Christianity. You have taken an idea out of context.

Now I happen to agree with you...

No idea about Buddhism has been taken out of context!

[1PeaceMaker]

Originally Posted by taikoo

I grew up in a buddhist tradition. I was also taught the value and virtue or putting my duty to others ahead of my own concerns.

I have to say that I've got a problem with the Buddhist self persecution. They are hostile to themselves. They see self imposed suffering and destruction of their lives as part of the purification of this life. (I'm thinking of the monks)

It's great to be sacrificial, when it flows from natural desire. It's great to be able to prioritize someone else's needs above your wants, or just take the time to show gratitude for the existence of others by giving them a special place in your day, but I see Buddhism as teaching it's followers to go into the unhealthy realm of devaluing themselves and their experiences.

On my list, I've got

Veganism (semi-starvation, an unnatural diet - I once was one, so I know)
shaving of heads
wearing ugly robes (intentionally)

Why this dishonoring of the Self?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Tathagata

"He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye." - Buddha

How is that a hateful doctrine?

It's not. Jesus said essentially the same thing.

But Buddhism simultaneously claims that self is an illusion, right? Thus, Buddha is asking you to see the illusion of "you" in the illusion of someone else.

But there should be no you to see in them because allegedly there is no you or them to see because it's all an illusion.

All that just to try and teach the golden rule?

Originally Posted by Tathagata

In Buddhism, you are not just an isolated being separate from everyone else, you are everything that exists looking through the lense of a single human being.

How can you claim that about "you" and "self" while at the same time claiming that you and self are an illusion.

An illusion compared to what reality? If such a reality exists, then why don't Buddhists speak in those terms instead of using "you" and "self" to confuse matters.

Originally Posted by Tathagata

Because we're all one and all interconnected, there is no reason to hate your neighbor, but rather only to have compassion for your neighbor.

How can you have compassion on the illusion of your neighbor lacking compassion for the illusion of yourself? It sounds like Buddhists want to deny the "self" in them that they nurture in others through compassion. Odd.

[elohiym]

Why is the "Middle" way ascetic?

It doesn't seem balanced at all, but seems as legalistic as Judaism and Christianity have become (wrongly).

[Tathagata]

Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker

I have to say that I've got a problem with the Buddhist self persecution. They are hostile to themselves. They see self imposed suffering and destruction of their lives as part of the purification of this life. (I'm thinking of the monks)

It's great to be sacrificial, when it flows from natural desire. It's great to be able to prioritize someone else's needs above your wants, or just take the time to show gratitude for the existence of others by giving them a special place in your day, but I see Buddhism as teaching it's followers to go into the unhealthy realm of devaluing themselves and their experiences.

This applies to monks only, but I do agree that it is a very harsh lifestyle that I disagree with. However, the monks are committing this sacrifice so that the Buddhas teachings can stay alive and preserved.

On my list, I've got

Veganism (semi-starvation, an unnatural diet - I once was one, so I know)

That's not a requirement. Buddha rejected the suggestion of instating vegetarianism/veganism. He himself ate meat.

shaving of heads

I don't understand that one. Buddha had hair, so I don't see the point.

wearing ugly robes (intentionally)

Actually, the Tibetan robes are very nice looking. And what about priests and their robes and strict rules for their life?


Btw, none of these strict guidelines or asceticism apply to the lay-Buddhist such as myself.