There are definitions and there are practical realities. For example, here is a typical definition of liberalism:
A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
Nitwit.
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Slogan/motto:
Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
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August 3rd, 2010, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha
Nitwit.
Righteous indignation cannot effect practical realities. It has been said that a young person who is not liberal lacks feeling. A mature person who is not a conservative lacks intelligence. Practical realities.
The reality is that you are arbitrarily changing the definition of liberalism to something that has NOTHING to do with principles of that particular designation.
Quote:
It has been said that a young person who is not liberal lacks feeling. A mature person who is not a conservative lacks intelligence. Practical realities.
Nope, just a bit self-rationalization. Liberalism isn't defined by its opponents.
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Location: A bubble of my own self-satisfaction. Which is in the New Forest somewhere in Hampshire.
Rep Power: 85386
Agnostic
Left Winger
Slogan/motto:
Some that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
Reputation:
August 3rd, 2010, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_A
It has been said that a young person who is not liberal lacks feeling. A mature person who is not a conservative lacks intelligence. Practical realities.
Originally written by Churchill, a conservative (not to mention a mediocre peacetime leader who got voted out months after the war). Almost inevitably quoted by conservatives who enjoy being condescending and using the indisputable fact of their age to back up highly disputable assertions. And meaningless unless you agree with it already.
Slogan/motto:
Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
Reputation:
August 3rd, 2010, 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha
The reality is that you are arbitrarily changing the definition of liberalism to something that has NOTHING to do with principles of that particular designation.
Nope, just a bit self-rationalization. Liberalism isn't defined by its opponents.
OK, so what is liberalism and how IYO does it contrast in theory with conservatism?
The point is that liberalism isn't defined by conservatives and their agendas any more than conservativism is defined by liberals and their agendas. You are saying that the liberal philosophy encompasses ideas that are antithetical to that philosophy based on the hyperbolic arguments of its intellectual opponents. It's nonsense.
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
The point is that liberalism isn't defined by conservatives and their agendas any more than conservativism is defined by liberals and their agendas. You are saying that the liberal philosophy encompasses ideas that are antithetical to that philosophy based on the hyperbolic arguments of its intellectual opponents. It's nonsense.
That is why I asked you how liberalism contrasts to conservatism. For example, the wiki link suggests: "Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom" is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality."
That is like saying liberalism is in favor of motherhood. But in reality what does it mean. Take "equality" for example. Is political correctness an expression of equality? Is the concept of a "hate crime" an expression of equality? I would say no. Yet these are ideas professed by liberalism
So what is your conception of equality as an expression of liberalism and how does it differ from the conservative conception of equality as you understand it?
That is why I asked you how liberalism contrasts to conservatism. For example, the wiki link suggests: "Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom" is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality."
That is like saying liberalism is in favor of motherhood. But in reality what does it mean. Take "equality" for example. Is political correctness an expression of equality? Is the concept of a "hate crime" an expression of equality? I would say no. Yet these are ideas professed by liberalism
No, they are methodologies that some liberals believe will help accomplish those goals. They are not a part of liberalism itself.
Quote:
So what is your conception of equality as an expression of liberalism and how does it differ from the conservative conception of equality as you understand it?
Equality is equality, Nick.
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Mr. Radish is right. When it comes to America's social and economic woes,there's plenty of blame to go around. Both liberal and conservative politicians and presidents have caused a great deal of harm to this nation, but I think that the conservatives are worse.
At least the liberals don't want to destroy the absolutely vital safety net for the unfortunate in America, and they don't want the government to pry into our bedrooms, and they are vigilant against the very real threat of theocracy in America.
Conservatives who say that FDR introduced "socialism" to America with his New Deal policies don't know waht they're talking about,and their claim that these policies merely prolonged the depression are asinine.
What was the government to do? Sit there on its posterior while millions of people were out of work and helpless? And do conservatives today really think that by eliminating welfare and other government programs to help people, that the economy will miraculously improve greatly and good jobs will be plentiful for all? Who's kidding whom?
Yes, it's very bad for America that so many people have remained indefinitely on welfare, but the gvernment can't just tell them"go out and get jobs you lazy bums".
If you're on welfare it's anything but easy to get a good job and become independent and self-supporting. If we want to do something about welfare we must make it possible for people on it to find jobs that will enable them to earn a decent or better living.
That's why conservatives are so full of you-know-what when they say that people should rely on themselves and show"personal responsibility" and not rely on the government. They're blaming the victims and making it sound as though there are millions and millions of lazy bums in America who don't want to work and want the government to support them for life.
The overwhelming majority of Americans want to work and earn a decent or better living and to be secure throughout their lives,but this is more easily said than done.
And conservatives are making the ridiculous claim that the Obama administration wants to keep us dependent on it in order to take away our freedom.
The government isNOT trying to take money away from honest,hard-working people to support the lazy,despite the idiotic claims of conservative bloggers and columnists.
But there has to be a safety net for the unfortunate,or millions of Americans will be helpless in the face of adversity.
Slogan/motto:
Since we are as we are, everything is as it is.
Reputation:
August 4th, 2010, 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlastikBuddha
No, they are methodologies that some liberals believe will help accomplish those goals. They are not a part of liberalism itself.
Equality is equality, Nick.
The liberals do not see why these methodologies cannot work. They believe that equality is equality. Yet if they were told women are women, they may not agree. Why?
Slogan/motto:
Is evil something you are or something you do? -- Morrissey
Reputation:
August 11th, 2010, 03:47 PM
Let's see,liberals did the following, over conservative opposition, and often at the risk of life and limb:
1. Ended legal discrimination against blacks.
2. Ended legal discrimination against women.
3. Ended the practice of corporations of dumping pollution into our air land and water.
4. Ended legal discrimination against unionization, which usually took violent form in which business hired thugs to beat up working men and women.
5. Ended child labor.
6. Established minimum wage.
7. Established social security, taking millions of elderly people out of poverty.
8. Established medicare and medicaid providing millions of elderly people, and poor kids medical care that they otherwise would not have had.
9. Established welfare, so that poor kids no longer starved on the streets.
10. Established the FDA, so that food and medicine was safe and tested.
11. Established consumer rights, so large corporations could no longer injure or kill Americans with legal impunity.
12. Regulated the financial industry (deregulated by the GOP), leading to 70 years of economic growth with no depression.
13. Guaranteed bank accounts up to $100K (now $250K) protecting millions of Americans from losing their life savings.
Etcetera, etcetera. Yep, liberals really destroyed America -- assuming you long for the days of lynching, child labor, rivers that caught fire, workers getting shot by Pinkerton thugs, and botulism in our food.
The liberals do not see why these methodologies cannot work.
If that were true, all liberals would support those things. Yet just like with conservatives, people disagree. It's almost like liberals are human beings!
Quote:
They believe that equality is equality.
In the same way they believe that apples are apples. It's the law of identity.
Quote:
Yet if they were told women are women, they may not agree.
Who might not agree? Can you show me some quotes from a liberal who denies that a thing is necessarily itself?
Quote:
Why?
Because you are making it up?
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Etcetera, etcetera. Yep, liberals really destroyed America -- assuming you long for the days of lynching, child labor, rivers that caught fire, workers getting shoot by Pinkerton thugs, and botulism in our food.
You know, the good 'ol days...
"Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men." ... T.S. Eliot γνῶθι σεαυτόν
Let's see,liberals did the following, over conservative opposition, and often at the risk of life and limb:
1. Ended legal discrimination against blacks.
2. Ended legal discrimination against women.
3. Ended the practice of corporations of dumping pollution into our air land and water.
4. Ended legal discrimination against unionization, which usually took violent form in which business hired thugs to beat up working men and women.
5. Ended child labor.
6. Established minimum wage.
7. Established social security, taking millions of elderly people out of poverty.
8. Established medicare and medicaid providing millions of elderly people, and poor kids medical care that they otherwise would not have had.
9. Established welfare, so that poor kids no longer starved on the streets.
10. Established the FDA, so that food and medicine was safe and tested.
11. Established consumer rights, so large corporations could no longer injure or kill Americans with legal impunity.
12. Regulated the financial industry (deregulated by the GOP), leading to 70 years of economic growth with no depression.
13. Guaranteed bank accounts up to $100K (now $250K) protecting millions of Americans from losing their life savings.
Etcetera, etcetera. Yep, liberals really destroyed America -- assuming you long for the days of lynching, child labor, rivers that caught fire, workers getting shot by Pinkerton thugs, and botulism in our food.
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