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Of course you realize this means war! ~ Bugs Bunny
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August 4th, 2010, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwight
Is there a difference between murder and abortion?
Of course ... in the same way there was a difference in slavery and non slavery and the killing of Jews during the Holocaust.
ALL are evil. ALL prey (preyed on the innocent). However, only one of these are LEGAL today.
No one argues anymore about how evil the Holocaust was.
No one argues anymore about how evil slavery was.
However, there are those who still find it perfectly acceptable to kill an unborn child based their location.
It's also rather telling that the FACT that the unborn did not place themselves in their location is not taken into consideration. If not for the mother and father's actions, the unborn child would have never been conceived.
Of course ... in the same way there was a difference in slavery and non slavery and the killing of Jews during the Holocaust.
ALL are evil. ALL prey (preyed on the innocent). However, only one of these are LEGAL today.
No one argues anymore about how evil the Holocaust was.
No one argues anymore about how evil slavery was.
However, there are those who still find it perfectly acceptable to kill an unborn child based their location.
It's also rather telling that the FACT that the unborn did not place themselves in their location is not taken into consideration. If not for the mother and father's actions, the unborn child would have never been conceived.
I'm at all not sure that talk of slavery or the Holocaust is really relevant here btw.
FTR my position is this: a longer term foetus I would be very reluctant indeed to ever resort to abortion if I were involved. Early term clusters of cells have no awareness imo and therefore it's the woman's right to choose that should be respected. Many are aborted anyway quite naturally without intervention all the time.
But there are also medical situations where I feel very strongly that an abortion at pretty much any time could indeed be totally justified morally. In fact not to do so sometimes could well be much more immoral, heartless and cruel.
While I'm on my high horse, I don't presume to dictate my morality on others btw and so it's indeed for others to make their own decisions where they are concerned.
Murder or keeping slaves for personal gain is wrong imo but it is a different morality to responsible abortion. Abortion is certainly not always wrong and those that find themselves forced into the making of a sometimes agonised over decision should not have to face the criticism of sometimes over-righteous outsiders.
Slogan/motto:
Of course you realize this means war! ~ Bugs Bunny
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August 4th, 2010, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwight
Abortion is certainly not always wrong and those that find themselves forced into the making of a sometimes agonised over decision should not have to face the criticism of sometimes over-righteous outsiders.
Except in the rare occasion of rape, no one is EVER forced to get pregnant. Consent to sex IS consent to the acknowledgment that one very well may end up pregnant with another human being.
Are we stating that women and men are too stupid to realize that IF they have unprotected sex or their protection fails, they very well may end up pregnant?
IF people are truly THAT stupid, they would be better off remaining abstinent so they don't take the chance of breeding.
BTW, there is absolutely nothing self righteous about advocating for protection of those who are unable to protect themselves.
I find it rather ironic and hypocritical that people are whining about Jefferson's avatar being offensive and then in the next breath defending the slaughter of unborn babies.
I find it rather ironic and hypocritical that people are whining about Jefferson's avatar being offensive and then in the next breath defending the slaughter of unborn babies.
As I said before a small cluster of cells is not something that bothers me all that much and this is what is often the case, unlike in the avatar, which would. But each case must surely be decided on its merits not by a dogmatic one size fits all..
Slogan/motto:
Better to reign in helll, than serve in heaven-John Milton
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August 4th, 2010, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
Being against the taking of an innocent unborn baby has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with advocating protection for those who are innocent and unable to protect themselves.
IF RvsW were overturned, would you still be making this same statement? IF it were legal to have slaves or for a parent to beat and kill their BORN children, would you still be making this argument?
In a debate/discussion forum, you will always need to defend your opinion and POV, just as I do. I am not saying that to be snarky, but it's just the way it works. FTR, I am one of the few nonChristians on this boards who is anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, so I am constantly defending my POV to those who believe otherwise. It's actually a good thing because it makes you reevaluate your position and either come to a different conclusion or find better arguments.
EVERY man/woman/boy/girl that lives and breathes are LITERALLY *walking, talking tumors* according to your own logic. Should you or I or one of our loved one's be removed from society because someone places no value in our existence?
I don't think so. Bottomline, unplanned pregnancies are totally avoidable except in cases of rape, which is rare.
Why should an innocent, unborn child be the victim of his/her mother and father's selfish *choice*?
The *choice* should be made PRIOR to getting pregnant.
If that case were overturned I would still be making the same argument and the same statements. It has nothing to do with legality, but everything to do with a woman's right to decide what gets to grow inside her and what doesn't. The child, until birth or an appropriate time in the womb, is not a citizen, thus it has no legal right to live. FTR, I am 100% against late term abortions, but thats another debate.
How does me being pro-choice make me pro-slavery? I don't see the connection, I think you're just grasping at straws. When slavery was legal there was a vast majority of abolitionists, you may know them; they were called the NORTH. So just because something is legal does not mean I support it. Get a clue.
We are not all walking tumors. When I say tumor, I think of something that cannot think, or fend for itself. I can do both, as I'm sure you can, so no, thats not my logic at all. Although there are some I wish I could remove from society based on the merit that they are totally useless hahaha
I agree with one of your last statements; abortion is an avoidable method, and if it were me or my significant other, it would be my last solution. If you had read my initial comment, you would have read that I am personally against abortion, but I feel women have the right to choose. Thats my stand, and I don't see it changing.
I'm a little confused as to what you mean with your very last statement? "The choice should be made prior to getting pregnant." With all due respect, that makes no sense. If I am a woman, I'm going to decide to get an abortion (or vice versa) before I have sex with a man and potentially get pregnant?
Slogan/motto:
Of course you realize this means war! ~ Bugs Bunny
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August 4th, 2010, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freethinker93
I agree with one of your last statements; abortion is an avoidable method, and if it were me or my significant other, it would be my last solution. If you had read my initial comment, you would have read that I am personally against abortion, but I feel women have the right to choose. Thats my stand, and I don't see it changing.
I am personally against child and spousal abuse.
I am personally against rape and child molestation.
I am personally against murder.
The reason I am against all of these is the same reason I am against abortion: it devalues, victimizes and harms (in this case kills) another innocent human being.
Quote:
I'm a little confused as to what you mean with your very last statement? "The choice should be made prior to getting pregnant." With all due respect, that makes no sense. If I am a woman, I'm going to decide to get an abortion (or vice versa) before I have sex with a man and potentially get pregnant?
It means exactly what I said. Women and men KNOW that sex can result in being pregnant with an innocent baby. IF men and women do not want to have children, there are many methods available to make sure this does not happen. Sterilization, abstinence, contraception, etc.
However, thanks to AOD, abortion IS the preferred method of birth control for many couples.
IF AOD were not available, women and men would have a much greater concern about getting pregnant because abortion would no longer be safe and convenient.
It should never be convenient to take the life of another individual ... especially one's own child, who by no fault of their own, was conceived.
Slogan/motto:
As long as people demand more government, they will get it. Government reflects the people.
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August 4th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Um Freethinker, your upset Jefferson has this avater of an aborted fetus. But obviously it looks as if it was born. That should tell you something, but I know it doesn't.
I hate to break it to the peeps, but your chances of being killed or wounded in a terrorist incident are so close to zero that they might as well be zero. Worry far more about slipping in the tub.
Slogan/motto:
As long as people demand more government, they will get it. Government reflects the people.
Reputation:
August 4th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Today, we are seeing a piecemeal destruction of individual freedom. And in abortion, the statists have found a most effective method of obliterating freedom: obliterating the individual. Abortion on demand is the ultimate State tyranny; the State simply declares that certain classes of human beings are not persons, and therefore not entitled to the protection of the law. The State protects the "right" of some people to kill others, just as the courts protected the "property rights" of slave masters in their slaves. Moreover, by this method the State achieves a goal common to all totalitarian regimes: it sets us against each other, so that our energies are spent in the struggle between State-created classes, rather than in freeing all individuals from the State. Unlike Nazi Germany, which forcibly sent millions to the gas chambers (as well as forcing abortion and sterilization upon many more), the new regime has enlisted the assistance of millions of people to act as its agents in carrying out a program of mass murder.
I hate to break it to the peeps, but your chances of being killed or wounded in a terrorist incident are so close to zero that they might as well be zero. Worry far more about slipping in the tub.
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